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&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Use of this information is free, but please see &lt;strong&gt;“About this Site”&lt;/strong&gt; for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used&lt;/p&gt;
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              <text>&lt;pre&gt;&lt;strong&gt;
 Interview Transcript
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Conversation
Dr. William Foege &amp;amp; Dr. William Foege
Transcribed: January 30, 2009 | Duration 0:41:22

A Conversation between Dr Mahendra Dutta &amp;amp; Dr William Foege


Introduction
Today is the 9th of July, 2008. This is a taping as part of  the  Continuing
Series of all Histories of Smallpox Eradication Program. Today  Dr.  William
Foege and Dr. Mahendra Dutta are going to have a conversation. Both of  them
know that this is being taped and they've signed permission for us  to  tape
and to use it in appropriate manners.

Dr. William Foege:     Okay. Mahendra, 30-plus years ago, we spent  so  much
           time together working on smallpox, but I never  asked  you,  how
           did you happen to get into the program? Did you  volunteer?  Was
           this dictated?

Dr.Mahendra Dutta:      Yes,  I  did  volunteer.  I  had  returned  from  my
           training in Epidemiology for nearly 9 months back to the  office
           where I worked with the Director General of Health Services  and
           the campaign was being mounted and they needed  more  people  to
           help in the campaign, and that's how I volunteered.

Dr. William Foege:     Ah, ah.  So  you  did  volunteer.  Now,  we've  often
           talked about the top group of people.  You,  M.I.D  Sharma,  C.K
           Rao, Pidish, and so forth, an extraordinary team, but how did it
           happen that they came together, because I don't think you  could
           have found a better group of people if you'd searched the world.
           How did that happen?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     There was a continuous process of  selection.  People
           at the helm of affairs in the Ministry of  Health,  technocrats,
           were getting involved and those who could not perform they  were
           quitting also. So ultimately the fittest survived. So that's how
           you saw them all together.

Dr. William Foege:     Ah! So  this  was  evolution.  Okay-Survival  of  the
           fittest. Now there was a person I was very fond of early  on  in
           the program who was running the  program  in  Bihar.  I  totally
           missed the fact that he was  extracting  funds  from  us  at  an
           alarming rate. How did you pick that up and how did  you  handle
           it?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     I got involved with the program in February when  Dr.
           Dish[inaudible name0:02:49] asked me to visit and see how things
           are moving there because he was not comfortable.

Dr. William Foege: This was February 1974?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     February 1974, and in this visit, when I  reached,  I
           went to a district, Munger, there is a district  by  that  name,
           where I spent a  week  seeing  how  things  are  happening.  The
           reports we  were  receiving  were  that  people  do  not  accept
           vaccination; and when  I  went  there  I  was  surprised.  Every
           morning we went to villages, we had  a  team  of  20  people  to
           vaccinate with us, and one after another village where we  went,
           people were pleading to get vaccinated; and the stories that  we
           got were: so many died  in  this  village,  people  were  really
           alarmed. They wanted vaccination, then the  civil  surgeon,  the
           head of the health administration of the district was hostile to
           Dr. Sinha and he narrated  me  all  those  stories,  how  he  is
           employing over and above the normal staff, some  extra  workers,
           and virtually paying them 1/5th or 1/6th of the money that  they
           are supposed to get and the remaining is being pocketed. So this
           was corroborated by another colleague who  had  worked  with  me
           earlier who was my other  class  fellow  in  the  public  health
           training, and he corroborated that this is actually happening. I
           finally met the Health Commissioner at a very personal level  in
           a club and told him. He said that this is no  news  to  him.  So
           then everybody knew-so I said then, "What to do." The  gentleman
           said, "Well! I am not heading  the  health  services.  It  is  a
           technocrat there. He has to come. I am a bureaucrat. Then  only,
           I will step in." It went on like this, till fortunately, let  me
           say, may be you are aware, in 1974  May,  there  was  a  nuclear
           explosion in India.

Dr. William Foege: I remember that!

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Pokharan, and after  Pokhran,  the  Newsweek  in  its
           front page carried a report, "Another Explosion  in  India"  and
           this  was  the  smallpox  explosion  in  Bihar,  when  you  will
           recollect that in our May search, we discovered over  8,500  new
           outbreaks with 11,000 cases. So -

Dr. William Foege:     In one week, 11,000 cases - if I can  just  interject
           here - The previous Fall, D.A Henderson had  asked  me,  "What's
           the largest number of cases you will find in any State in a week
           in India?" And we actually took this  quite  seriously,  and  we
           concluded that it would be less than1,000 cases. So we suggested
           that they use 3 digits  for  their  computer  programming.  D.A-
           always suspicious of us; added 4 digits, and then we had to call
           and say, we've had 11,000-plus cases in one week, in one  State,
           and so even the computers were not cooperating anymore. Okay, so
           go ahead - then May of 1974...

Dr MahendraDutta:      Yeah, then the stage  came  that  the  government  of
           India and the State Government, they  all  got  really  startled
           because a lot of journalists who had come to Rajasthan to  cover
           the  nuclear  explosion,  they  moved  into  Bihar  and  started
           reporting. Now at that point of  time,  we  were  asked  by  the
           Health Commissioner there who was the chief  bureaucrat  in  the
           Health Service. Earlier he took the  stand  that  the  Technical
           Head should come to me but now he himself went to the  political
           head and told him that this is the problem that  they  want  the
           Program Manager Dr. Sinha to be moved out; and then he was  -  a
           substitute was selected by consensus. He was a very good person.
           Everybody felt that he was going to deliver, and he moved in and
           then things moved.  So  after  that,  we  had  very  fast  track
           movements on the program.

Dr. William Foege:     I want to come back to  this,  but  this  has  always
           been an example to me of an outsider not able to  see  what  was
           actually happening and an insider understanding immediately what
           was happening. What else did I miss?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Well, you didn't  miss  much  because  even  in  this
           case, I recall you were believing that smallpox will  definitely
           go sooner or later. I wanted it to be sooner.

Dr. William Foege: Yes,

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     That's about the only difference of you.

Dr. William Foege:     So the  reporters  came  to  India,  they  did  their
           reporting on the nuclear test and now looking for other stories,
           suddenly this becomes a very good  story.  Smallpox  is  out  of
           control and they have no background to know that this is  partly
           due to the improvement  of  the  program  and  surveillance  was
           improving and there were a lot of people now on the problem, but
           it caused Parliament to make  life  miserable  for  you  because
           everyday they were asking for explanations;  and  how  important
           was that  in  diverting  people  from  smallpox  eradication  to
           answering Parliament?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Well, the group of workers who were handling  at  the
           National level for the Parliament was  only  being  fed  by  the
           peripheral workers. We were not disturbed much in the field.  In
           fact, we were helped by this lot  of  reporters  coming  in  and
           giving  the  stories.  It  was  a  helpful  thing  because   the
           Government at that time asked us to request whatever  we  needed
           more and we increased our efforts far more then.

Dr. William Foege:     What was Karan Singh's, the Minister of Health,  what
           was his approach to all of that bad news?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Oh! He was the real support. He recognized  that  the
           disease is being tackled in other States and  it  was  only  the
           problem of inactivity in Bihar, that's  why  they  were  lagging
           behind. So he himself visited later in Bihar and emphasized that
           we put in more efforts and things were already showing  up,  and
           very soon things will be completed. In fact, we  recollect  that
           he all along was a big moral support.

Dr. William Foege:     So, at the very top, you  had  all  the  support  you
           needed. If you go down a  layer,  to  the  Director  General  of
           Health Services, to Dr. J.B Srivastav, what was his role at this
           time?

Dr  Mahendra  Dutta:      Unfortunately  he  belonged  to   the   group   of
           unbelievers. There were people, I believe in every country,  who
           did not believe that Smallpox can be  eradicated  vis-à-vis  the
           others. He belonged  to  the  other  group  and  he  was  always
           pessimistic about our claims of eradicating it very soon. So all
           I recollect is that I had a very good liaison with him  and  he,
           several times,  enquired  of  me,  "Is  it  real  what  you  are
           reporting-so good a progress in so short a time?"  So  that  was
           the main thing he would always  accept  when  I  say  so  and  I
           recollect when later we were so close to  the  endpoint  and  we
           were going in for announcing a reward for a case.  The  minister
           was to make that announcement on July 1, 1974.  He  was  asking,
           "Isn't it too early to make such an announcement?" And  I  said,
           "Well the amount of money and effort we are putting in each day,
           I shall be so happy that if I can have  all  the  remaining  few
           hundred cases discovered by this reward and it will save  a  lot
           of money and time." It was a matter of chance that not a  single
           case was found and we didn't have to pay a single reward but Dr.
           Srivastav had apparently not been at the most peripheral  level,
           in the field level; that  is  why  he  couldn't  appreciate  how
           thoroughly the things were happening.

Dr. William Foege:     How powerful was his  pessimism  in  influencing  the
           Minister of Health of Bihar when they wanted to change  back  to
           mass vaccination.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     He came to Patna on the asking  of  the  Minister  of
           Health and addressed the civil surgeons and at this  meeting  he
           pleaded that the ultimate  solution  of  the  problem  would  be
           covering backlog of mass primary vaccinations; children who have
           never been vaccinated. Unfortunately, the minister took it  very
           seriously and wrote to Dr. Karan Singh, the Indian Minister  for
           Health that your Director General has requested that  we  should
           cover the backlog of primary  vaccinations,  children  who  have
           never  been  vaccinated.  He  asked  for  money;   vaccine   and
           bifurcated  needles   for   vaccination   to   harness   a   new
           organization, the block  level  health  staff  to  complete  it.
           Because Dr. Srivastav said he is not  against  the  firefighting
           efforts that are being carried out. So Dr. Srivastav's  comments
           were sought about the statement that he  made  and  I  recollect
           that Dr. Srivastav was uncomfortable how to respond to it and he
           asked me, I had to go back from Patna and I  said  there  is  an
           anomaly. They too are saying the same thing; that first we bring
           the disease to zero level and thereafter we can  concentrate  on
           the backlog of primary vaccinations which we never needed there,
           probably; and it  was  completed  without  the  backlog.  Nobody
           needed it.

Dr.  William  Foege:      Now  you  talked  about  the  believers  and   the
           unbelievers. Do you recall the day you became a believer?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:       I  recall  the  day  when  the  non-believers  were
           shunted out. I was responsible  myself.  Several  of  my  Indian
           colleagues who came to work in Bihar  with  me  in  the  initial
           discussions, they belonged to that thinking,  though  they  were
           working and I pleaded with them, if you don't believe, probably,
           morally, you should not agree to do it. Couple of  them  did  go
           back instantly, because unless you have a  conviction  that  you
           can achieve, then you are not doing it.

Dr. William Foege:     The National Institute of Communicable  Diseases  put
           a lot of effort into this program. Did they take great pride  at
           it when it succeeded; and did it make a difference  in  the  way
           the Government of India supported NICD.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Oh! Tremendously; I believe  they  are  surviving  on
           the laurels of achievement of smallpox even  today.  That's  the
           biggest thing they did. Of course, they did a  couple  of  other
           good things after that but smallpox is a feather in their cap.

Dr. William Foege:      There were  very  many  foreign  workers  and  often
           times coming for three months and then leaving, and  that's  the
           most difficult, to get people acclimated in 3 months to get some
           productive work out of them and then have them leave. What were,
           from your point of view, the biggest problems  of  having  these
           foreign workers in India?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Well, I recollect when they  landed  in  Patna,  they
           volunteered, many of  them  came  through  CDC,  and  when  they
           arrived in Patna, they were very enthusiastic in performing.  At
           the same time, probably, they have never worked in a  developing
           country before. So they were also apprehensive. What we did  was
           that upon their  arrival,  besides  the  technical  briefing,  a
           sociologist was made  to  speak  with  them;  and  this  session
           attracted them the most. They had so  many  things  to  ask  the
           sociologist. Probably, this  was  the  longest  session  in  the
           briefing in Patna, three to four hours, and they were told about
           the communities in India, how they operate  and  how  they  live
           together. So that helped them to know quickly, in the filed, how
           to perform. I recollect that the work to be  done  was  so  much
           that many of them did long extended hours  of  the  day  in  the
           field. From morning  till  late  evening,  and  we  were  always
           telling them that in the summer months, you should not be out in
           the peak hours in the noon but they were defying it also in  the
           enthusiasm that they must complete the work before  they  leave.
           Fortunately, some of them, and they were  good,  those  some  of
           them; they asked for extending their  period  of  stay  so  that
           before  they  leave  they  could  see  things  happening  and  I
           recollect at least, a couple of  them,  Steve  Jones  and  David
           Hyman; they were later on moved to Bangladesh  but  they  stayed
           for about five months in India. So that was their enthusiasm  to
           show the  results.  The  small  mistake  that  happened  in  the
           beginning, a couple of them arrived with their better-halves and
           they couldn't perform because field conditions in India were not
           so conducive for their wives to stay alone;  and  they  did  not
           perform well in the field, and subsequently  we  had  to  advice
           that anybody coming here must come without their spouse.

Dr. William Foege:     So you worked them so hard maybe 90 days was as  long
           as they could actually take. We wore them  out.  Have  you  ever
           thought pf what were the biggest mistakes that were made in  the
           program. If you were doing it all over  again,  what  would  you
           avoid doing?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     I don't see back,  anything  wrong,  the  only  thing
           that for this short program, as I said, it lasted hardly an year
           or so, and there  were  other  programs  that  suffered  because
           everybody was occupied with this program, but we had  to  pursue
           with those programs. I recollect that Family  Planning  was  our
           biggest competitor as a program, and time and again, the  people
           in the family planning were disturbed but we had  to  tell  them
           that ours was going to last a few more months, and later  on  we
           can join with you in the program.

Dr. William  Foege:      That  brings  up  the  question;  if  the  National
           Institute of Communicable Diseases took great pride in this, did
           Family Planning take pride in the contribution they made-because
           it was an enormous contribution?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Well, maybe that was only after April or sometime  in
           1975 that the Family Planning was given a  top  priority  during
           the emergency era in India. Before that, they had certain target
           approach and that's why they were more eager to perform and  let
           not their workers be diverted to help in  smallpox.  Because  in
           the smallpox, we involved every month, for  a  week  all  health
           workers for the search and that's what was disturbing  them  but
           seeing the results, they also agreed that we are doing some  job
           and let it be finished.

Dr. William Foege:     You mention  that  it  was  in  truth  a  very  short
           program, at the time it seemed to go on  forever.  But  it  only
           took us three months to sort of come up with the system, another
           four months to perfect the system and then, India went from  the
           highest rates in May of 1974 to zero  twelve  months  later.  No
           place else in the world was the change  so  fast,  so  dramatic,
           it's amazing in retrospect to even look at that.  But  then  you
           went on  from  India  to  work  in  Ethiopia.  Compare  the  two
           programs.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Things were very different in Indian program. We  did
           not have the difficult terrain working conditions in the  field.
           In Ethiopia, the communications in the field was  so  difficult,
           and here  I  recollect  when  at  the  end  phases,  every  case
           occurring in Bihar, I personally went to that village,  I  could
           reach in less than 24 hours. But  this  could  not  happen  over
           there. They needed a much prolonged sustained effort, and I  was
           part of it that was  done  from  moving  from  one  district  to
           another so that you make one area free. There, the  people  also
           do not move so much as they do in India;  because  here  in  the
           Indian program, fortunately, when our efforts were at  the  peak
           that was the lean  season  for  transmission.  The  disease  was
           expected to come down with the onset of monsoons but our efforts
           were peaking up further. So that's how we  could  come  over  so
           soon. Because around October-November, when the rains cease  and
           people started moving about again, we were left  with  very  few
           cases; 150 odd villages where the disease  was  present,  and  I
           recollect later in July, we had some junior teams, mobile teams,
           we stationed a team in every outbreak and  these  young  doctors
           who were coming as  medical  interns,  they  performed  so  well
           because they were all trained, they were all relied  upon,  they
           were amazed at what kind of faith we were placing upon them.

           I recollect those who were bearded Sikh gentlemen,  when  I  met
           them in the field, they removed their beard; I have no  time  to
           wash every day; and those who didn't have the beard,  they  were
           having beard, I have no time to shave everyday. So  those  young
           people  changed  the  whole  complex.  Then  we  introduced  the
           strategy of guarding the case which was paying dividend that the
           case would not be allowed  to  spread  the  disease  to  another
           place, around the  clock,  8  hour  shifts,  watch  guards  were
           placed, watch  guard  supervisor  was  placed.  The  family  was
           compensated that they can't go out for  work.  So  therefore  we
           will pay rent for the house where our guards will stay;  so  all
           these strategies helped in achieving a very  fast  disappearance
           of the disease.

Dr. William Foege:     Its nice, 33 years after the last case, to  hear  you
           talk about it and still have the  enthusiasm  that  you  had  33
           years ago. What is it though that you  would  like  to  tell  to
           young public  health  workers  that  you've  learned  from  this
           experience that you hope you can pass on.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     All I could say in brief was that in  public  health,
           community approach, your  conviction,  your  devotion  and  team
           effort, that's what matters the most. The entire team of workers
           national, international, higher, lower level functionaries, they
           all worked like a very close team; and that's what I can believe
           public health team-effort approach-is pride.

Dr. William Foege:     I agree with  you.  I  think  that's  the  lesson  of
           smallpox in India; that the team worked as  a  unit.  It  was  a
           coalition in truth, and people lost their national identities...

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Absolutely, absolutely.

Dr. William Foege:     ...their personal identities and it seems  as  though
           we made decisions based on everyone agreeing, I  can't  remember
           that we ever took a vote or had really strong disagreements.  So
           it seems to me that it was a coalition that  was  quite  unique.
           Now, I worry that we have lost the  words  now  of  people  like
           M.I.D Sharma. You talked to him  a  great  deal  after  smallpox
           eradication and I don't know if you have any  message  that  you
           would like to pass on from MID Sharma or Dr. Pidish, or some  of
           the other people who we don't have a chance to question.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     I was meeting them till/[while] they were alive,  and
           my only understanding was that they felt that the success  story
           of smallpox eradication was also an achievement which gave  them
           satisfaction in their life, and the only thing which I felt they
           wanted the young generation to follow or emulate what  they  saw
           was, the same thing as I said  earlier,  that  devoted  efforts,
           team efforts always mattered in community health work.

Dr. William Foege:     Years later, I had lunch with Dr. Pidish and he  said
           something similar, that it was  quite  different  to  be  on  an
           Indian team than to be on an international team  working  on  an
           Indian problem, and he said to me at that  time  that,  "If  you
           come back to India, I will come out of retirement," we  will  do
           this again.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     I would say the same. Working with  you  was  a  real
pleasure.

Dr. William Foege:     Thank  you.  How  did  you  get  into  public  health
though?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     That was a very different  story.  My  father  was  a
Public Health Physician.

Dr. William Foege:     I know, the Rockefeller Foundation sponsored him.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Yes, he was a Rockefeller Fellow and right from  when
           I graduated from the medical school, I made the choice that I am
           going to study in the School of Public Health.  I  didn't  waste
           any time. Very next year, I joined the School of Public Health.

Dr. William Foege:     Where?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     In Calcutta in India, and  then  pursued  the  career
           through married[inaudible0:28:34] life, and I have no regrets.

Dr. William Foege:     And what did you do after smallpox eradication?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Oh!  After  smallpox  I  worked  with  the  Municipal
           Corporation of the City of  Delhi.  I  was  their  Chief  Health
           Officer for a few years.

Dr. William Foege:     Your father had done the same thing?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Oh, he'd done the same thing too, and then I was  the
           Chief Epidemiologist of the NICD for a  three-year  period,  and
           finally I was the Deputy Director General for the public  health
           work in the Ministry of Health, and looking  back  I  feel  very
           happy that I worked in these positions and got a satisfaction.

Dr. William Foege:     But there is something genetic here also. Talk  about
your son.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Oh, he chose it himself, that he wants to also  be  a
           Public Health Physician. He came  to  the  U.S.  He  was  a  bit
           disgusted about the policies of reservation for certain backward
           classes, and he said that he may  not  get  the  opportunity  in
           India to work in the specific field where he wishes to work, and
           he will choose to go to public health work and go  to  U.S.  for
           training. So I said, "If you wish to go, its up to you."  So  he
           is working here.

Dr. William Foege:     Three weeks ago, I was at my  final  meeting  at  the
           Rockefeller Foundation and I was asked to speak  to  the  staff,
           and I said: when people ask me what the  Rockefeller  Foundation
           has done, I resist talking about the Green  Revolution,  or  the
           Yellow Fever Vaccine, or the Hookworm  Program;  I  said-I  talk
           about the scholarships that  they  gave  to  people  around  the
           world, and I talked about your father getting one  of  those  to
           study  public  health  and  that  for  three  generations,  this
           investment by the Rockefeller Foundation has  continued  to  pay
           off. I mean, it's just a wonderful story.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     Very nice of you to say  that.  My  father  has  left
           behind his writings of life  and  he  feels  the  same,  that  I
           received the training in public through the Rockefeller  Program
           and I owed a lot to repay it, and I have repaid  it  because  my
           son followed the same, my grandson followed the same. So  that's
           the same way he thought.

Dr. William Foege:     In India, how do we  improve  the  number  of  people
           going into public health? You've done it. You've found it to  be
           a very enjoyable satisfying profession. How do we  increase  the
           number of people doing this?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     It has been a dilemma for all the years but  I  don't
           know how, but things appear to be going haywire  now.  More  and
           more people are interested in public health. It's a  big  change
           happening in recent years, and I recollect that four years  ago,
           a Foundation with the collaboration from the Harvard  University
           was established to  raise  Public  Health  Schools  in  India  -
           establish new Schools of Public. Medical Research  Council  also
           following  the  same   example,   they   are   also   supporting
           establishment of new schools of public  health;  and  the  young
           doctors are also getting  more  interested  in  pursuing  Public
           Health as careers. Unfortunately, so far the Governmental System
           doesn't create more opportunities or caters  for  public  health
           people. But I am sure there are two ways of  doing  it.  One  is
           that you train the people and there will be careers  coming  up,
           the other way is you create careers and then you  find  shortage
           and then people will be trained. So apparently we are going  the
           other way round. People will get trained and opportunities  will
           be created to meet  those  demands.  Already  several  programs,
           National [inaudible0:33:06] Programs have started creating posts
           for public health physicians at district levels  and  lower.  So
           that approach probably is going to be there.

Dr. William Foege:     I think we are seeing a renaissance of global  health
           interest in recent years and I am  just  pleased  that  we  both
           lived long enough to see what's going to be a  great  change  in
           the future.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     I wish too.

Dr. William Foege:     Are there stories or things  that  you  want  to  say
           about the Smallpox Eradication Program because, you know, we may
           never get an opportunity like this again to talk about  it.  Are
           there things that you want to make sure that people hear?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     We have said a lot but the only thing I'll  add  will
           be that in achieving success, besides technical things, there is
           also an element of administrative tact, I would call it; whether
           you say diplomacy in the modified terms but we, people in public
           health, should use this more often and after  all  you  have  to
           work with your own team, and  also  this  is  the  team  in  our
           system: there is a bureaucracy, there is a political leadership.
           So you have to work along with them and carry them with you.

Dr. William Foege:     I hope to make that point at our reunion that  behind
           every public health decision, there is a political decision...

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     True.

Dr. William Foege:     ...and that we end up trying to  educate  politicians
           but it's a very labor-intensive sort of thing to do because  the
           politicians keep turning over; that they have a limited time  in
           office and that I now miss no opportunity to try to  get  public
           health people to go into politics. It seems to  be  a  shortcut,
           more efficient, if we can  get  more  public  health  people  to
           actually become politicians.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     I wish it happens in my country too. At  the  moment,
           we are facing a dilemma because more and  more  politicians  are
           coming from  another  group,  the  group  which  is  rather  not
           desirable but they are the people who flout laws  and  more  and
           more of them are entering into politics. A separate  stream  has
           come.  Formerly,  most  politicians  were   coming   over   from
           categories like rich  people,  business  people,  like  accepted
           heads of the communities. Now some  bad  elements  have  started
           infiltrating into politics.

Dr. William Foege:     We are years ahead of you.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     It is worrying,  not  me,  but  it  is  worrying  the
           Indian Government itself; how to get rid of  these  elements  in
           the politics. Anyway, it's not for me to  too  much  comment  on
           that.

Dr. William Foege:     But that seems  to  be  a  chronic  problem  in  many
           countries. Let me ask you one final question and  that  is,  the
           remarkable  contribution  made  by   TATA   for   the   Smallpox
           Eradication Program where you had a private corporation agree to
           work under Government rules and to use the same  approaches  and
           so forth. It now has happened with other corporations, MURK with
           what they have done with River Blindness and  Glaxo  Smith-Kline
           with lymphatic psoriasis and so forth, but that was a very early
           example of what TATA  did.  Has  this  continued?  Do  you  have
           private, public collaboration in health programs from that  TATA
           experience?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     All I would say is that per force, we had to  go  for
           that collaboration because the Southern  Bihar  lacked  adequate
           infrastructure of health from the Government side and  TATA  has
           had a very good infrastructure in that region. They  have  their
           [inaudible0:37:35] and  coal  fields  and  factories  all  over-
           spread. Therefore we approached them  and  they  readily  agreed
           because they were working with the people  there  where  it  was
           benefitting. I have seen that now it has become  a  Governmental
           Policy in recent years to accept that  kind  of  -  because  the
           medical care itself is going to  the  private  sector  more  and
           more; and government is only obliged to  deliver  public  health
           service to the community; the preventive medical  care,  and  in
           these efforts, they know that we cannot invest so much, so  they
           are  seeking  collaborations  from   non-governmental   agencies
           including the private sector.

Dr. William Foege:     Well, this has been great fun to get  together  again
           after - we have done it before, but till now at 33 years to talk
           a little bit about this, and I will say this on Saturday, but  I
           want to be sure that it gets recorded now. How wonderful it  was
           to work with you, what a hard field worker  you  are,  that  you
           never shied away from doing anything that needed to be  done  in
           the  field,  and  you  were  just  the  epitome  of   deliberate
           approaches to solving problems, rather than getting excited when
           things went wrong, you would sit down and ask how  do  we  solve
           this problem and so it was great to work with you then, and it's
           great to hear you reminiscence now.

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     I am also pleased that I'd worked with  you,  and  in
           fact I learnt also a lot of things, but basically,  as  I  said,
           our team-approach was the most successful approach.

Dr. William Foege:     Great-good. Thank you.

Question from Audience: May I ask one question? Did he play jokes on you?

Dr Mahendra Dutta:     He played rings because whenever  he  had  nothing  -
           rather, he had something in his brain lurking to solve, he would
           have a set of rings how to unfold them. But I don't  think  Bill
           was that kind of person. He was a serious person. The best thing
           I recollect is he was a very good assessor. He could assess  how
           people are performing and that's  what  we  got  from  him;  his
           personal assessment of people who were coordinating,  who  could
           survive.

Dr. William Foege:     But the ring story reminds me of an  absolutely  true
           story; where we were going to a meeting where another person had
           absolutely different ideas than I did, and I knew  that  because
           we discussed it quite often; and it was a 2-day meeting. It  was
           early in the first meeting when I took off my  puzzle  ring  and
           let it fall apart, and I just said, "Oh could you put this  back
           together? He had had a puzzle ring as a child and he said  sure.
           He spent the next six hours on this puzzle ring. He even  missed
           the discussion of the issue that I was worried  about  where  he
           would bring up the other side. We were passed  on  other  things
           before he realized that the puzzle ring had kept him occupied.
***
Thank both of you.


[End of audio]
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