20 12 2286 https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/448cff1fc20ab4239fee37331af8f8f3.jpg 755c2614d2744074a2b53d2c06302bb6 https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/89b57463696a8505f3a85d0ca251c78f.pdf 1589db6e5ccc0fc03924b2795568d4f0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Diane LaPointe about her activities in the West Africa Smallpox Eradication Project. The interview is being conducted at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, on July 14, 2006, as a part of the 40th reunion of the West African Smallpox Eradication Project, to mark the launch of the project. The interviewer is. NOVA: Would you take a few moments and just describe your early life-where you were born and your education? LaPointe: I was born in Portland, Maine, and I attended Cathedral High School, which is a Catholic girls' high school in Portland, Maine. LaPointe: I also went to college in Maine, at St. Joseph's College in Lake Sebago. After I graduated, I did 1 year of volunteer work in Camden, Arkansas, as a teacher for the extension lay volunteers and then returned to Portland. My husband, Mark, was in the Peace Corps for 2 years before that, and he also returned to Maine. We each did a year of teaching in Maine, and after that year, we were married and then came to CDC [Centers for Disease Control] right after our honeymoon. NOVA: How did Mark get involved in the Smallpox Eradication Program? LaPointe: He was teaching at Mechanic Falls High School in Mechanic Falls, Maine, and received a call from someone who was hiring for this program at CDC. I believe they were looking for people who had African experience and were able to speak French, and so his name was suggested by the director of the Peace Corps. Mark was hired over the phone. My, how things have changed, to be able to get hired over the phone. NOVA: Absolutely. So, tell me a little bit about what it was like. You're living in Africa, you're an expatriate, and it's a different country, a different culture. Talk a little bit about that. LaPointe: Well, I'd like to, if you don't mind, start with our coming here. NOVA: Okay. LaPointe: We married in June of 1966 and took our honeymoon. Mark had bought a little Volkswagen bug secondhand; it got 12 cents a mile. On the way down to Atlanta, our car broke down in North Carolina. So we put all of our belongings in a storage place in North Carolina-our belongings were in that Volkswagen bug-and took a bus down here. We left the car there to be repaired and came and stayed at a hotel in Atlanta. Mark would come over here to CDC to do his training, and I'd get on the local bus with the newspaper and sit behind the bus driver, looking for an apartment and telling him that we were going to be at CDC. He would tell me where to get off and point in certain directions. So we got a place on Briarcliff and started the smallpox training program here, which to me was one of the wonderful experiences that we've had, meeting all these people. We had intense French training, the [unclear] program, where you just saw the pictures and heard the people speak. You never saw a written word. That's how we were trained. A group came from France, and we did all the training here and met all the people who were going to be going to West Africa. We formed a real feeling of camaraderie with all of these people. NOVA: How long was the training? LaPointe: I believe it lasted throughout that summer and into the early fall. We spent all day with the French-speaking trainers, and sometimes in the evening, so we were really not supposed to be speaking English at all. It was very intense. It was wonderful. NOVA: So, how soon after the training did you move to Africa? LaPointe: We went back to Maine and got together some household items and we flew out probably in October or November of that same year to Libreville, Gabon, in West Africa. And I do remember an experience there right at the beginning. Mark would go off to the embassy and work with his colleagues there, with the AID [U.S. Agency for International Development] people. We didn't have a place to live yet, so we were at the local hotel. And this was my first attempt at using my French. So we would get up in the morning. Mark would go off to work, and I would go to the restaurant and ask for an orange juice in French, jus d'orange [sp.]. And I'd never get orange juice; I'd get grapefruit juice. So after a couple of days of that, Mark came back from work, and I was in tears. I said, "I can't speak, I can't even say orange juice in French. What am I going to do?" And so he went to breakfast with me the next morning and he asked for orange juice, and they brought him grapefruit juice. But he had the foresight to ask, "Why didn't you give me orange juice?" and it was because they didn't have any. So that kind of alleviated my concern about speaking French. NOVA: That's funny, that's funny. LaPointe: We had an apartment right on the ocean. I mean, for 2 young people, newly married, we had this wonderful apartment, completely furnished by the government, overlooking the water. It was very, very nice. I was pregnant at the time. I had become pregnant right away. So we began thinking about where I was going to have our first child. Speaking with the doctor there in Libreville, who was a Peace Corps volunteer doctor, we had thought about going to Lambaréné, which is Albert Schweitzer's hospital, but we were discouraged from doing that. They said they didn't feel there were adequate facilities in case of an emergency. So it was decided that I would go up to the Cameroons. We knew Arlan and Edith Rosenbloom, who were there. So I went up there in my 8th month. I flew up and spent my time with them and then went out to a hospital in Ebolowa, which was run by an American missionary group. I was flown there. It was a very small plane, a 2-seater in addition to the pilot. Beside me was an elderly Frenchman. Because this was out in the bush, they buzzed the hospital to tell them somebody was coming. And I guess I had a look on my face that looked as if I was going to pass out. The little Frenchman next to me said that he had candy with him and he tried to feed it to me so I wouldn't pass out. When the plane landed in a field, a nurse from the hospital came, with a cot, and I was picked up and taken to the hospital. I spent I'd say a week or 10 days there. There was another American woman there, too, who was from the Cameroons. We became friends, and we hung out with the nurses and the doctors and played Mah Jongg. Mark drove up from Gabon. It took him a while to get there, I guess, and he thought the baby would have been born by the time he got there. But when he arrived, she had not yet been born. So we took a walk around the campus of the hospital that day, and that evening our daughter Mary was born. NOVA: I hope your daughter appreciates the trouble you went through to get to a hospital to deliver. LaPointe: I think so. NOVA: What was it like raising your children there? LaPointe: Actually, it was very easy. We had help, which was something very new to me. We had a woman who would come every day and do our laundry and clean our house. I really took care of Mary pretty much myself, but that woman was there to help me. It was beautiful in Gabon. There were beaches there. So we spent a lot of time going to the beach and taking walks. Gabon was very French. It was a former French colony, and there was still a large French presence there. So I didn't get the feel that I got later, when we went to Mali, of that African experience of the marketplace, because it was all French shops. We developed a wonderful relationship with a French family that lived upstairs from us. The woman took me under her wing. She'd take me shopping. And her 2 daughters loved my baby. So we did a lot together as family. The thing I remember most is that all of those relationships you made took the place of family-although they certainly couldn't replace them. But they helped with that feeling of loss of family. They became your family. NOVA: How long were you there? LaPointe: We were in Gabon probably about 2 years, and then we were assigned to Mali, to Bamako. NOVA: And there was a big difference between the 2 places? LaPointe: Absolutely, yes. Gabon was, as I said, very French, and located on the water. Mali was inland, on the Niger. But the culture was so rich that I didn't miss the ocean-I had thought I would. But I got so engrossed in the culture of the people. That was a real experience. That was really going to Africa for me. The people were wonderful. Our second daughter was born. I went back to the States to have her. We had the Rh-negative/-positive situation, so I went back to Maine and then came back with Michelle. In Mali, we lived in a little compound. There were maybe 5 houses, all young American couples, people with the embassy who lived in our area there. And, again, we had help. We had a woman who would come in. She liked to take the children and go off. I didn't really like that because I wanted to spend my time with them. But she felt that was her job. But I enjoyed going to the market; I learned a bit of the language, the Bamber [phonetic] language. I liked to go and bargain with the women at the market. We had to be careful about boiling our water, and filtering it, as well as washing and soaking all our vegetables. And if you hung your clothes out to dry, flies would leave their eggs on your clothes. They could get into your skin, so everything had to be ironed. But I just had a wonderful experience because I was very young. NOVA: What was your toughest problem that you faced while you were there? LaPointe: Sometimes Mark would be gone for long periods of time. He couldn't stay in the capital all the time; he had to go out and do his business out in the villages. Those separations were probably the most difficult times. Another incident I remember is that when we were in Mali, I traveled with Mark once up into the desert. We left our children with some good friends. I can't remember the exact town we went to, but this was in the period right after there had been a coup in Mali, and the president was imprisoned in this town. There were guards around the prison. I wasn't aware that you couldn't take pictures. So I was out taking pictures, completely unaware of not being able to do that. Later, at our hotel, we got a tap on the door, and the local gendarme came and confiscated the camera and put us under arrest. We had to stay there at the hotel. Mark spoke to the head of the health department who he was visiting there, and I believe that man must have interceded for us and finally got the camera back. I think they took the film. But that was pretty frightening. So that's something that has stuck in my memory. NOVA: Nerve-racking. LaPointe: Very much so. NOVA: And I'm sure you were worried about your children. LaPointe: Right, exactly. NOVA: Earlier, you talked about, shopping and going to the market in Gabon. What did you do in your spare time when you were in Mali? LaPointe: Much of your day was spent shopping and bargaining. I love to sew, so I enjoyed going to the market and buying African material. I used to make a lot of dresses and skirts and things with the African fabric. I became friends with Peggy Yates, the wife of John Yates, a political officer. They had 3 children, so we did a lot together. They had a little pool, and we didn't, and so a lot of our day was spent over there visiting with them. Or we would get in the cars and go off somewhere, find someplace to take the children. And then on weekends, groups of us, with our husbands, would get together and go out and try to do as much as we could around the area. One particular incident I remember is when we all went off with the kids on a Sunday to a place near the river. It had recently rained, and the cars got stuck in some African lady's field, and she was not very happy about it. John Yates was able to hail some African guy with a Mobylette. So he went into town and got somebody to come out with a truck and chains. We all sat out in the field on blankets and waited until they rescued us. But I think most of our day was spent shopping. I like to cook, so learning how to cook some of the local foods and just raising children and enjoying the friendship of the other people that we met filled my days. NOVA: How do you think participating in the project changed your life? LaPointe: Completely. Even to this day, we have a lot of interaction with Africans. We went back to Africa again (not with the smallpox program), and the children went to French schools. That changed their lives. It opened their eyes to a whole different side of the world, the poverty, how much we have as Americans, an appreciation for what we have. Our daughter Michelle learned to speak French. She was younger and she just picked it up; she was so fluent in it. So when she went off to college, she majored in the romance languages, and that led to things for her. I've done work since we've been back. I taught. I'm a retired teacher. But when I retired, I volunteered with teaching English as a second language for African women, and, as I said, we have a lot of African friends to this day. At our church, Corpus Christi, there's a large African community, and we've been very involved in things relating to Africa. The experience really changed our life completely. I don't know if we'd still be in Maine, if I'd still be teaching there. I don't know. I can't even think like that. NOVA: What difference would it have made if families, say the spouse and children, could not have joined the CDC employees or the medical officers, the folks that were there doing the work? What kind of difference do you think it would have made if the families would have had to have stayed back home in the United States? LaPointe: I can't imagine. I think it would have been very difficult. First of all, you wouldn't be able to relate to anything your husband was going through. To be there together, you were in it together. It would have been a great loss for me, and I think it would have been very difficult on our family. I know we have had separations like that, and it's very difficult on families, the tensions when you get together, and the wife becomes the boss of the house, that kind of thing. I don't think I would have understood what he had been going through when he'd come back and talk about it. I just don't think it would have worked. I'm really happy to have been part of that. It was a whole new life for us. NOVA: Is there anything that you would have changed if you had to do this all over again? LaPointe: I can't think of anything, really. We really enjoyed it. We've made lifelong friends, some of them with CDC. A lot of these people [at the reunion] we have not seen since back then. But we have 1 friend in particular, Jay Friedman [Jay S. Friedman], who lives here, who we've been friends with him since we started here. That's 40 years. The Roys are another couple that we know. And some of the friends we made while we were living in Africa, the people at the embassies who had children, we're still friends with a lot of them. Our children became friends with their children, and they still stay in touch with each other. So we've developed this network of friends that will just keep going on. NOVA: Wonderful. Is there anything else that you'd like to add? LaPointe: Just that I'm very happy that we did this. I know it's just made a big difference in my life, and, of course, Mark's. We came back here to CDC, and that was his career. I'm looking forward to seeing a lot of the people who I haven't seen in so long today. I'm so glad to have had the opportunity. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310127340&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource LAPOINTE, DIANE Subject The topic of the resource CDC Smallpox Eradication Program USAID WHO Life as expatriate wife Description An account of the resource Diane LaPointe was the wife of Mark LaPointe, who served as an Operations Officer in Gabon. Diane relates stories of life during training in Atlanta, flying to Cameroon to give birth to their first child while based in Gabon, moving onto Bamako in Mali, shopping and cooking local food, and how the experience positively impacted her life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrar, Linda (Interviewer); NOVA; Writer LaPointe, Diane (Interviewee); CDC; Wife of Operations Officer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-14 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Centers for Disease Control Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 261096378 bytes audio/x-aiff Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158mp emory:158mp https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/2a15d7e56f699e0d9b656b933a9097f0.jpg d41e52482a63d40c8c63da4569f3d4fd https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/f3d5b6add61103d571965d7687a2e094.pdf 7d4d3dc3766a295220a5cf78aebd3bc1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Mark LaPointe about his experience and involvement with the West Africa Smallpox Eradication Project. The interview is being conducted at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, on July 14, 2006, as a part of the 40th reunion of the West African Smallpox Eradication Project, to mark the launch of the project. The interviewer is Diane Drew. Drew: Mark, I wonder if you could start by sort of telling me a little bit about your background, your education, where you grew up. LaPointe: I grew up in Maine. I majored in English at Assumption College in Worcester, Massachusetts. After graduating, I went into the Peace Corps in Guinea, West Africa, where I learned a little bit about Africa and got fluent in French, very fluent. I went something like 4 months without speaking English. Then I taught French and English in a high school in Mechanic Falls, Maine- French to the college-prep kids and English to the shop kids. I think they gave me the job because I was big. Drew: And you could keep them under control. LaPointe: I could keep them under control. Just for the record, I'm 6'1" and about 220, and I guess they had a teacher before who they terrorized, even tied him up. Drew: And that goes back a few years. That was like high school is nowadays. LaPointe: They were nice kids. But anyway, during that Christmas vacation, I went down to see some friends in Washington. I saw Stan Shaya [phonetic], who was the Peace Corps doc when I was in Guinea and went on to become the medical director of the Peace Corps, and he asked me about teaching. I said I liked it but that I didn't know if I wanted to do it for a career. I said, "If anything interesting comes up, let me know." And, literally, I was teaching school, and I got a call from a woman named Faye Hendrix at CDC who asked me if I would be interested in the smallpox program. Evidently, Billy Griggs [Billy G. Griggs] was in Washington, talked to Stan Shier, and told him they were wanting to recruit for the smallpox program in-house, but they wanted a few folks who had been in Africa just to sort of fill it out. So there were about 4 or 5 of us who were ex-Peace Corps volunteers. And so, literally, I was teaching a class, and I got a call. In those days, a long-distance call was a big deal. So they said, "Hey, do you want to do the smallpox program?" And I said, "Sure." I was, what, 24 at the time. So I drove down 1 day to Concord, New Hampshire, and interviewed with Leo Morris. He offered me a job. And Diane and I got married on June 25 and drove to Atlanta for training. She always teases me that I'm a cheapskate and that I earned 16 cents a mile on my honeymoon. Drew: Somebody that I talked with yesterday, either Jay Friedman or Betty Roy was in the Peace Corps, too. LaPointe: Both Jay and Jean [Jeannel A. Roy] were in the Peace Corps. Jean was in Cameroon and Jay was in Sierra Leone. Also Tony Masso [Anthony R. Masso]. Those were the ex-Peace Corps volunteers that CDC brought in. I think it was good because sometimes people had questions about this, that, and the other thing because at that time, people didn't travel that much, especially to that part of the world., and they could come to us. So, anyways, this is the 40th anniversary of the smallpox program in West Africa, and Diane and I had our 40th anniversary 10 days ago. People talked about the smallpox program, but it was actually the smallpox eradication-measles control program. That was very important because a lot of the countries, especially the francophone countries, had what they called the Service des Grandes Endemies (SGE), which were mobile health teams that were run by French military doctors who were assigned to Africa. And pre-vaccines, if you looked at data for measles, there was a very pronounced peak and valley every 2 or 3 years and a high mortality rate. And these Service des Grandes Endemies tried to control smallpox, but they didn't believe in eradication. And so in the francophone countries, you didn't have the problem with smallpox that you did in some other countries. A measles field study had been conducted in then Upper Volta, now Burkina Faso, in the early '60s. And the results were very, very positive. So the African francophone community really wanted measles vaccine. There was actually a measles control program, which was the predecessor of the smallpox program, but it wasn't very well managed and it had all sorts of problems. LaPointe: The Minister of Health of Upper Volta came to Washington, and he said that his country wanted the measles program. And because the situation was such a disaster, a lot of CDC people-I think Mike Lane [J. Michael Lane] was one of them-went to West Africa and reviewed the measles control program. They concluded that it was not a medical problem, but an operational, logistics problem. And so that's where they got the idea of guys like us (I became an operations officer) going over. Drew: It seems to have been really critical to the overall program. LaPointe: Yes. As time went on, although they realized that physicians were good, they also realized the value of good managers and operations officers. But anyway, when AID [US Agency for International Development] came to CDC and said, "Can you run the measles control program?" CDC said that it wanted to do smallpox eradication too. That's an oversimplification, of course. Drew: Sure. LaPointe: And so, that was that marriage. And I know in the anglophone countries, especially places like Sierra Leone and Nigeria, they really wanted the smallpox eradication program, and so they took the measles control with it. But anyways, I think we talk about smallpox eradication . . . Drew: And kind of forget the other . . . LaPointe: Yes. And many Africans were more concerned about measles than smallpox. Drew: Because they were losing a lot of children to that. LaPointe: Oh, yes. We would hear stories of measles just decimating the pediatric population of a village. And you'd hear stories about a woman who had several children under 5, and measles would come along and all of a sudden she had none. So I just feel, for the record, that it's important to state that for many countries measles control was more important than smallpox control. Some of the French military physicians would ask me, "What's this eradication stuff? We've been controlling smallpox for years." There was always the debate whether smallpox control was adequate. Plus eradication is such an absolute. And so physicians in the French military community would say, "Well, it gets down to nothing. There's a little flare-up, we send some people out and vaccinate, and it calms down again." Drew: So they were skeptical about eradication? LaPointe: Well, you know, they thought eradication might be too difficult. But I think that was one of the beauties of the West African program: they showed that if you can pull off the eradication program in West Africa, with all the problems there, there was a case to be made that it could be done globally. Drew: So some of the lessons learned, then, during that period probably applied in subsequent countries. LaPointe: I think the biggest lesson was that, although mass vaccinations were good, CDC questioned whether you really needed them for an eradication program, especially with a disease like smallpox that, over time, especially in West Africa, proved not be as infectious as people thought it was. Originally they thought it was going to be an urban disease, and actually it was a rural disease. That's another thing: they talked about search and containment strategy, but many of these countries had what they called firefighting teams. If there were an outbreak someplace, people would go out and vaccinate. So it was sort of a containment strategy. It was haphazard, ad hoc. But the notion that you would run mass vaccinations and just do the whole country, and if there were an outbreak in an area where you weren't vaccinating, it was left unattended-that's not true at all. You got some vaccine and went out and did what you could. Drew: So, even when there were mass vaccinations, even then there were containment strategies? LaPointe: Yes. They had these strategies. If there were an outbreak someplace, you just wouldn't sit there and say, "No, we're doing mass vaccinations. We're not going to go out with that." So I think that what Foege [William H. Foege] did is that he institutionalized that, sort of codified it for the campaigns in the subcontinent. Am I straying? Drew: No, no. Please don't worry about that. I feel that you and the others I've talked with are the ones who have the stories, the experience, and from my conversations with Dr. Sencer [David J. Sencer], I think the interest is in trying to gather the heart of your experience. So maybe tell me about where you were and what the living conditions were like. LaPointe: Well, we came down to Atlanta, and we had our training from July through November. And as projects agreements were assigned in countries, then you'd get the go-ahead to leave. Diane and I went back to Maine in mid-November and just waited for the word to go. We were assigned to Gabon and got there in late November of '68. Drew: So, you celebrated your first Christmas together in Gabon? LaPointe: Yeah, we did. And Gabon was an interesting country because it was very rich and underpopulated. At that time, the official census was something like 450,000. It's a country that has always had a problem with its demography because the birth rates weren't very high. Some people attributed it to a lot of untreated gonorrhea. Drew: I'm not that knowledgeable about Gabon. LaPointe: It's on the equator, very wealthy. It had a little bit of oil. It was one of the smaller members of OPEC [Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries], which was just started when we were there. Gabon had uranium, manganese, a big iron-ore deposit, and wood (because it was heavily forested), and it was very much controlled by the French. My counterparts were mostly French. My direct counterpart was a Frenchman about my age, Alan Gourdon [phonetic], and we got along pretty well. We had a good time together. The head of the Grandes Endemies, that mobile unit, was Jean Montinazo [phonetic], and the dean of the medical community was General Gee Sholiak [phonetic]. These people, even to this day, have stayed in contact; I saw them last about 3 or 4 years ago when I was in France. The Grandes Endemie was very, very prominent. Gabon was very interested in measles control because it hadn't had a case of smallpox since '63, and it was '66 when we were there. But the SGE bought into the notion of mass campaigns because the vaccines for smallpox that they used really weren't that good. The experience was good for me because I worked with the French. I think I got to understand them and I got very involved in the community. If Diane or I made a mistake in French, the neighbors would tease us and correct us. And so we got to be pretty close friends while we were there. that are still entrenched with, the parents, the kids, and the grandchildren have visited in the States, and we've visited them. Drew: Which is a great side benefit. LaPointe: Yes, it was. But they were very fixed in their ways. I think a lot of the things that CDC was promoting-epidemiology, surveillance and reporting, using data as a tool to control disease-were used for their records, more for their archives than to really help control disease. So there were these continual little-I can't say they were squabbles, but debates-about how you're going to do this stuff or improve surveillance. Drew: Kind of maybe not being altogether on board with CDC's way. LaPointe: Well, no. At that time I think the CDC was the new kid on the block, and people really didn't know much about it. That was CDC's first overseas project. By contrast, the French ran institutions, like the OCEAC [Organization de Coordination pour la Lutte contre Endemies d'Afrique Central], which is the medical community in Central Africa, that did training (it was based in Yaounde, the capital of Cameroon, and people would go there for their training and almost eschew training elsewhere). And the French had the same thing up in the OCCGE [Organization de Coordination et de Cooperation pour la Lutte contre Grandes Endemies] countries and Bobo-Dioulassou. I worked in the smallpox program, and I also had several other African assignments right up until 3 years ago, so you can see things over a period of 40 years. And what's interesting is that these organizations are now pretty much passé. At the time the role of the paramount trainers and policymakers in that part of the world had fallen on hard times because the French don't support them as much, Now, people realize that WHO training, CDC training, and training in the tropical institutes in Holland and in Belgium are all very worthwhile. So I was working in Gabon in sort of the heyday of the French dominance in that part of the world. So, I think in terms of getting the teams trained and building a warehouse and a cold room and things like that, I was busy. But I thought the real action was in West Africa. Drew: So in some ways, your assignment was a little more low-key than some of the others? LaPointe: Well, it wasn't a high priority, I guess, because of the small population of the country, for 1 thing. And the infrastructure of some of places-the roads were abysmal, especially in the rainy season. I remember taking something like 36 hours to go 40 miles. Drew: Amazing. LaPointe: And we had to dodge trucks and this and that. People chided us about not having a winch on our vehicles to pull us out of the mud/ Once, we had had to rebuild a bridge because our truck went through it. We took the jack and got a 2×4 or something like that from the bridge. I jacked it up and found a hard spot, in about 5 feet of water, and jacked it up. We took turns doing that. It was miserable. I was young then; I could do that. American ingenuity born of necessity, But those are the sorts of adventures we had in Gabon. It's such a different place. It was newly independent-I think it got independence in '63. And there wasn't much of an infrastructure. Now, once they have some money from OPEC and started building their own . I haven't been back there. It's sort of like a forgotten country on the continent because it has such a small population. I have a friend who was the ambassador there. We were talking about the demography of Gabon, and he was saying that, even today, they have the population up over a million, but nobody can count the people. They must be counted 3 times. And I remember when I was there, the population count all of a sudden went, with the stroke of a pen, from 450,000 up to something like 600,000. And the ambassador, a wonderful man named David Bane, called me and he said, "What do you think?" and I said, "According to all of our figures, there's been no change." And my theory was, is, that they would count people twice. They would count them in the village and then, as they moved into town, they'd count them in the town. But there's no way in the world that they had that increase. The president who took power when I was there is still in power. He must be the longest-serving head of an African state. Drew: What's his name? LaPointe: Well, when I was there, his name was Albert-Bernard Bongo. He became a Muslim about 20, 25 years ago, and now his name is Omar Bongo. When I first got there, the president was Léon M'ba, and he was sick. He was in Paris, and the cabinet used to fly to Paris about once a month and have signatures and this and that. It was sort of a tempest in a teapot. There were several people vying to be vice-president, knowing that Léon M'ba was going to die. Léon M'ba died in the summer of '68, and Bongo, somehow, was appointed president. The country, as I've said, was dominated by the French, and there was a fellow named Jacques Fokka [phonetic], and he used to come in. He was some sort of a political henchman of de Gaulle and the people who ran the ministry. The French community had great trepidation because he could fire people. So I think he and some other people decided that Bongo was their man, and so he's been in power ever since Drew: That's amazing. LaPointe: Yes. He's been around about 38 years, and he's still a relatively young guy. Drew: He must have been very young. LaPointe: Oh, yes. He was in his early 30s or mid-30s. So, after that, we headed up to Mali. Our older daughter was born while we were in Gabon. Diane is talking about that in her interview. She had Mary in a missionary hospital in Cameroon. LaPointe: So we went up to Mali, and that was different work. I had been the only CDC person in Gabon. Up in Mali, I was working with Pat Imperato, the CDC epidemiologist in Mali, that was different, just the opposite. Gabon was firmly in control of the French, whereas Mali had socialist notions, Marxist notions. A lot of the people we worked for were confirmed socialists and Marxists because those were the people who supported African independence. They bought into the philosophy that the riches of Europe come from exploiting Africa. Drew: In Mali, were you dealing with migrant people with cattle and stuff like that? LaPointe: Yes. In Mali, Pat did a study called the Tranjo Mas. In Mali there was a whole series of movements, depending on the season. During the rains, the cattle herd stayed stationary because they had adequate pasture, plus people liked to stay home during the rainy season because it rained a lot. The nomads liked to go way north during the rainy season to get away from the mosquitoes; and so the Tuaregs would go way up almost to the Algerian border. The hill cattlemen would stay in south-central Mali. The fishermen would stay in their village. And the Sauri [phonetic] stayed up around the Niger River. As the waters dried up, the northern nomads would come south to follow the grass. And then the southern herds of the [unclear] would come. And right in the middle of the [unclear] delta or the Niger was something called Lake Dabo. And I remember Pat and I went up there, and he felt it was like a National Geographic special because all these folks would come together to Lake Dabo. They all had their little turf. You would meet people, try to vaccinate them, and find out if they had any smallpox. That's how we did surveillance. Drew: And you were also doing measles vaccination? LaPointe: Yes, and then other things. Mali had a big yellow fever outbreak, and so we were doing yellow fever vaccinations. We had Russian oral polio vaccine, Sabin, and they were like little bits of candy. We used to go crazy because the vaccinators thought they were candy and would start eating them. We were funded for measles and smallpox, but yet when a crisis would come along, we were a viable operation. We had as many as 30 teams. Drew: So you had the manpower and the structure and so forth to be flexible? LaPointe: Yes. One of the great lessons, I think, in public health, is that most of our vaccinators were not trained, except by us. I mean, they called themselves nurses, but they weren't. They were people we recruited. Some of them were illiterate. But they formed teams and they did a great job. I don't think they've gotten enough credit. We talk about some of the people who went on to become very prominent in public health, but a lot of that work was done by teams of people, men mostly, with primary school education, if that. We're getting away from Lake Dabo. I just want to finish up on it because it's a fascinating story. All these folks would come together. Then, when the rains came, they would just disperse and go back to their cycles. And so we had to move quickly. After 2 or 3 rains in the delta, the Niger became just a morass; it was bottomland clay. If you didn't get out, your vehicle might just stay there, and that whole area, during the rains, would become an inland lake. Drew: So you could wind up being trapped if you didn't pay attention? LaPointe: That's right. There were places, during the dry season, where you could drive across the Niger if you found a ford. But then, as the rains fell heavily in places like Sierra Leone and Guinea, the headwaters of the Niger, the river would be a half a mile wide at the height of the rainy season. They had steamboats that would only navigate the river for 6 months a year. But we rode a boat because we had the idea that we could drop off vaccine at these small, isolated villages, and we wanted to see how it was done. It's sort of impractical, but it was great fun. So in places like Mali, you really had to be attuned to the rainy season because the whole dynamic of the country could change. When I got to Mali in '68, we survived a coup, the military overthrow of Modibo Keita, who was a socialist. That was a little hairy because on the ride down to the bakery to get some bread, I saw soldiers all over the place and machine guns and stuff. Drew: Did you know ahead of time what was going on? LaPointe: No, I didn't, and I said, "What are all these soldiers doing here?" Duh. We had just arrived. I left Gabon and went up to Mali, and then Diane came after, when Mary was just about a year old. We settled into a little transient apartment, from which I could walk to work. And the nurse came by and said, "There's been a coup," and I went and told Pat, "There's been a coup." We had to stay in the house for about 3 days. I remember we were going to go take a walk, and it wasn't too far away. Some small-arms fire opened up, a machine gun, tat- tat-tat-tat-tat-tat. So that changed a lot because the socialists-their party was called the Union Sudanese-were very hostile to Americans. They were against the war in Vietnam because it was against one of their socialist brothers After the coup, the military took over, and things became easier for us. The Minister of Heath was a guy named Benny Chenny Fofona [phonetic], who was a good friend of Pat's. They had done some fieldwork together. And he was very good. Well, the other guy was okay, but he was under political restraints. Drew: Sure. LaPointe: So I think, in Mali, when the military took over, there was sort of a honeymoon. That was a time in Africa when there were lots of coups. I think people in the smallpox program went through half a dozen in places like Nigeria, Dahomey, Togo, and Mali. And so that changed, and, of course, after a while the military abused their power and became crooks. I don't know if anyone's talked about the last outbreak of smallpox in Mali, which was in 1968, October-November. We had gotten reports that there was smallpox in an area over near the Upper Volta border. We looked at the maps and we talked to people, and the only way that we could get in there was to go through Upper Volta, through a town called Watagere [phonetic], and come in the back. That was a big expedition. It was like a Frank Buck movie. We had people carrying Ped-O-Jets on their heads. We must have recruited about 20 people or so. And we walked up to. We met Tom Leonard (CDC operations officer) over in Watagere [phonetic] with his counterpart. And Dave Asteen [phonetic] was there. I think he was in Burkina Faso or Upper Volta. And we all went up there, to this little canyon that had something like 5 generations of smallpox. And that was interesting because everyone thought that smallpox spread lightning fast in West Africa. Mike Lane had done a survey of the outbreak in nomads and found out that they had 3 or 4 generations of smallpox. And we saw that, too. People with scabs. That's one of the things you would look at, their faces, because after the scabs, they'd have pock marks. But if the scars were of recent origin, they'd still be pink. So we did these surveys. We just walked around looking at people's faces, and if the scabs had recently fallen off, their faces were so pink, that was at least a 30 percent attack rate. I remember we walked up there, spent the morning, vaccinated everybody, and did all the things that we were supposed to do, and that was the last outbreak in Mali. We had scares after that, outbreaks of chickenpox and this and that, but that was the last smallpox outbreak. After that, we still did the mass campaigns because we hadn't finished up in the desert area. Looking back on it, it was great fun. But the Dodge trucks used to break these front axles. I used to be amazed at our mechanics. They could set them up with spare axle housings. Somehow they're out in the middle of nowhere in 115° to 120°F heat, and they would take off the axle and sort of put the snap where the housing was, and they'd reassemble it. Drew: Didn't it take a certain amount of brute strength too? LaPointe: Well, it would take a lot of patience, some strength, and then some ingenuity. Again, we talked about the vaccinators being good, but some of these drivers were exceptional because they always brought the vehicles back. And they could repair them. I mean, I would go up and watch them and, looking back on it, I have the greatest admiration for the work that they did. Drew: These were Africans? LaPointe: Yes, Malians. And the same in Gabon. Some of these drivers were amazing. You know, these muddy conditions. I have a picture in my mind of a driver-his name is unknown to history-but we were coming down a slope, and the car fishtailed, and we were going toward a relatively small village. And it was in the rainy season, and in Gabon, the rainy season was just gumbo. It was terrible. And this driver, somehow he downshifted, fishtailed, and just straightened us out just as we hit the village. If he hadn't done that, there would have been a serious accident. Those were the days before seatbelts and air bags and all that stuff. These guys were great drivers. And they used to compliment me on my driving because, up in Maine, I knew how to drive in snow, and if you can drive in snow, you can drive in mud. So I knew how to downshift and go with the flow. Most of the time I didn't like to drive there, but just in case there's an accident or something, for practice I'd do it every now and then, and they'd always comment. So I could admire how well they drove in mud, because if they were in Maine, they would have been able to do the same thing on snow. But I don't think that these folks get the credit that they deserve. Drew: So there's really kind of this whole foundation of getting the job done. LaPointe: Yes. We stood on their shoulders, you know. Drew: Were they primarily informally trained? LaPointe: Oh, yes. These apprentices would be assigned to a driver, and it was exploitation because things that, teach my kids to drive was an afternoon, and then sort of a white-knuckle drive. But they would learn rudimentary mechanics and they could fix things. In that part of the world, they added water to a lot of the fuel; they were constantly tinkering. And these guys did a marvelous job. Drew: How old were they, about, on average? Young adults? LaPointe: My age. I was in Mali in 2003 and spent a couple of afternoons with some of my old drivers. Drew: That must have been kind of neat. LaPointe: It was wonderful, wonderful. Drew: Were they French speakers? LaPointe: They knew greetings and phrases.. Drew: But they were fluent in French? LaPointe: They could say simple phrases like, "Where's the chief's house?" or "I want to eat," or "I need some water." But that would get me to someone. The problem in that part of the world is that, in Gabon, for instance, they must have 40 dialects among half a million people. I remember driving along with my driver, who was a Fang. He would be fine translating in that area, which is up at the Cameroon border. But we'd go down to southern Gabon and someone would speak in a dialect, and I'd say, "What's he saying?" and he'd say, "I don't know, I don't know." The situation was like with a romance language. You know, like if you understand Spanish and French, you can sort of follow a little bit Portuguese or Italian? But with the local dialect, absolutely zero, not even the same language. The same in Mali. You had [unclear] in the central part, and you'd have 15 languages. And so to master one might be great. Then you go to another part of the country . . . I remember when I was in Senegal the last time, I was talking to some Senegalese in French about why they should have a national language, saying, "Well, you'd be like Belgium," because the Walloons and the Flemish are always fighting about language superiority. It's very political. You know, language is political, even in this country now. Drew: Oh, yes. LaPointe: And the thing is if they did that, I was telling him that Senegal would have to be like a Scandinavian country. When Scandinavians learn English, it's not fun and games. They take it seriously because it's their lifeline to the rest of the world. You meet Scandinavians who speak very good English; they start in grammar school. So, anyway, I said, "Well, if you guys want French as a national language, first of all you'd have to appease all the other non-French speaking. then you've got to be serious about a language. So French is, maybe people don't like it. They're always figuring out official language and the language of instruction. Drew: Because that's the association with colonialism? LaPointe: Well, you know, they speak French well and they love it, but when push comes to shove, it's still foreign to their African culture. But they also realize that they have to have that because how else can someone, say, from Mali speak to someone from the Congo? They need a common language. And so it's French. And they realize that, because if you chose a native language, which one would you choose? And so the subject is fraught with politics. When we went back to see the driver, we always spoke in French. I mean, I would fool around and say, "What's the word for this?" and "What's the word for that?" He was a Bambara speaker. And we would play around with it. But when push came to shove, if you really wanted to talk, it would have to be in French, so that was the language you stuck with. It was nice going back to Mali. I saw my counterpart, who was sort of administrative counterpart if you needed travel orders or some formality or process type thing. He and I were about the same age. I saw him, and he's retired.. Drew: And he is a Malian? LaPointe: Yes. His name's Sisoko [phonetic]. In his retirement he formed a service to solve small problems for civil servants. He doesn't get paid for it. But it was fun because I went in and he was talking, and he just lit up, jumped over his desk, and gave me a big hug. There must have been about 25 Malians there, and they go, "Who the hell is this guy?" Then he told them who I was and what I had done. And so it was good going back. We talked about the old days. Drew: Did Diane go with you, too? LaPointe: No. I was working. The last time I was in Africa, I managed a 10,000- household survey for UNICEF and managed, activities in Mali, Senegal, Ghana, and Benin. I went to Mali 3 times. So I made time to go around and see as many people as I could, and the word got out that I was around. It's nice seeing people again, going back, oh, I guess, 38 years. Drew: Did you and Diane have other children? LaPointe: Yeah, we had Michelle. Drew: And this was while you were still in Africa? LaPointe: Yes. Diane went back to Portland, Maine, where she had family, because Mali really didn't have the facilities. Mary had been born in Ebola. In Cameroon, there was a Presbyterian hospital. When the physicians went on furlough, they usually went to do a residency someplace, so they were all board-certified. We were young and maybe a little foolish, but things went well. I drove up from Leeperville [phonetic}. We drove across the border. It was about another 100 miles to where she was. And everything went well. But Mali just had no facilities that were as good as the ones in Cameroon. So the option was to go up to Europe or the States, and we opted to go to the States, and it was best. So off they went. Anyways, they're doing well. Drew: If you'd been in charge of the program, are there things that you would have done differently? LaPointe: I think the biggest thing that they did is that they left us alone. Don Millar [J. Donald Millar] was very good that way. If you showed some initiative, and even though you broke every rule in the book, he'd say, "You're a naughty boy, but God love you!" Once I was way out on the tip of Gambia in a small village. We were driving out for the smallpox program, and our vehicle didn't really have any air-conditioning; it would all be dusty and red. And one of the Malians said, you know, "In the smallpox program, we're not white or black; we're red." And so this time we went up there in an air-conditioned vehicle and people had their laptops and their phones. There seems to be this phenomenon where people land someplace and [unclear] airplnes, it seems that everyone has a cell phone and wants to call someone up here. . Drew: It always makes me laugh how quickly they adapt to the new technologies. LaPointe: As soon as they say you can use your cell phone, it's . . . Drew: Everybody and their brother. LaPointe: It seems like most people do that, and it's the same phenomenon. We were with some UNICEF people, and they rented an air-conditioned van. There must have been 15 of us. And these guys were calling their offices and had their laptops and all this and that, and yet it was a practice run. And we went out to the village, and the village hadn't changed that much. I was thinking that when we were there for the smallpox program, the last thing in the world we'd think of when we were visiting a village was to call Atlanta. Now they have cell phones, and many people call their local offices, regional office. Drew: Checking their voice mail. LaPointe: Yes, all that stuff. And I remember they did some sample interviews. We were looking at the forms and walking around in the village. There was absolutely no-or very little-change in 40 years. But then I picked up a form and really looked at it, and it noted that a 23-year-old woman had had 6 pregnancies and half the kids had died. She had no education. So, I just grabbed a sample of every woman who was 23 or 24-I forget the exact age- and all had pretty much the same type of history. And I was thinking, we have the technology, and yet nothing's changed at the local level. It's disappointing in a way. And I can never figure out why. If people want to change, they leave the village. Change doesn't come to the village. A person has to leave the village to change. And so the villages' populations, I suppose, really don't grow that much because people want to leave. But I think somehow the modern technology might lead to micromanagement. I mean, why do you have to call your boss and say, "I'm here at the village and I'm shuffling around." I really think it's a distraction. Or your boss tells you stuff to do. Among other things, if you don't want people telling you what to do, you don't call them up and ask them for advice, and especially a superior. Drew: And if you don't want to be told no, you don't ask. LaPointe: That's right. And I think with the smallpox program, the program was CDC's first overseas project, and we were all young. People didn't really defer to headquarters. I think sometimes when people who have been out in the field come back to headquarters, they have their own values and start to impose them on people. I supervised people overseas. I think one of my biggest chores was to keep my mouth shut and not say, "Well, that's not quite the way I'd want to do it." And I just think that the smallpox team was a good team. I consider Billy Griggs a friend and a business associate. But he understood his role. He really didn't interfere with the daily stuff. But he knew how CDC worked and how CDC should be supported in the field. He never went to the field. I think there's a tendency now for people to travel too much. Some travel is good. But I think Billy was a key to that success. I don't think he liked to travel. Once, I asked him, "How can you not travel?" And he said, "Well, I know CDC, and if people need something, I can get it at CDC." And that was a very valuable thing. I don't think people have given it the credit that it deserves. If you needed something, they'd find it. And with Millar, if there was any doubt about the central office or the field, he always supported the field because these guys knew what they were doing. Now a lot of things have become very institutionalized, and I think there's too much process. I went to a 30-day evaluation conference, again in 2003 when I was doing that stint for UNICEF. Everyone was talking about input. There was no output type of thing. And I think an eradication program, process is good, but the bottom line is eradication; your feet are really to the fire. I mean, it's an absolute term. You have the disease. I suppose it's like pregnancy. You either are or you're not. But I noticed when I've gone out and talked with the same people, they spend a lot of time on emails. I remember once I went to Guinea for something in the '90s, and there was this kid who went along. He did something at CDC. He came up to me, and I said, "Well, here's where I'm going to be if you ever want to link up, just show up." And he said, "I love to do it, I'd love to do that." And I was there 10 days, going to the ministry and clinics and talking to people, taking notes and doing my evaluations. I saw this guy a couple of days before I left, and I said, "I never saw you. What happened?" He said, "I can't get out of the office." He said, "Everyday, a window opens up in the heavens and dumps a whole screen full of stuff, emails from Washington, the AID office. I have to answer them." And he said, "I get all caught up, and the next day at 3 o'clock, I get another dump." I asked him, "How often do you get out of the office?" He said, "Never." See, in the smallpox program, people were never burdened with that stuff. You had your reports and you sent them in. Drew: Well, one of the things that I find happens is almost like a Pavlovian response. An email shows up, and we're often geared toward, "Oh, I must respond to it right now." LaPointe: And then, nowadays, with phones. When we were in Mali, I think we got 1 or 2 phone calls. Big deal. In those days, you'd have to go down to the "Ministry of Telephones," etay tay [phonetic], as they called it. Post Telegraphic and Telephone, something like that. And you'd say, "Well, we want to call Atlanta at 3 o'clock tomorrow," or whatever. And then we'd go down there and somehow the call would go through Paris, and we'd get our call through. And we could hardly understand it half the time. Why bother? Now, with the phone systems working so well, people call headquarters everyday just to say, "Checking in." When I was going overseas. I always liked to go to the schools and see what was going on because my wife was a teacher and teaching is sort of our family profession. My grandmother was a teacher; my dad was a teacher; my wife is a teacher; and Michelle, the one who was born in Mali, is teaching, doing research at Stanford as a postdoc. I always liked to see the class size and this and that. We'd see class sizes of 60-70, and hear kids come in speaking an African dialect, trying to learn something in French, or English in the anglophone countries. I also like to talk to people in the offices, especially at UNICEF, ask them, "How often do you get out in the field?" And they say they can't. They take emails and telephone calls. Drew: Somehow that just seems wrong. LaPointe: It does. I remember when I did some work for the Carter Center in Guinea. I went out to Niger, and the place I was in had a lot of Guinea worm, at one time perhaps more Guinea worm than any other place in West Africa. They had put up a little sort of rest house office so that the director could go out there. He had young kids. And he told me, "I go out in the field. I bring my wife and kids and work for a couple weeks." I saw him about 6 months later, and I asked, "Are you spending enough time in the field?" He said, "I can't get out of the office. I have calls, I have emails, I have meetings," and this and that. And I said, "Well, how about the field?" And he said, "Well, I just can't get out there." Well, the thing is, is that you can, but you have to tell your people and say, "I'm sorry, we're not going to reply to emails," and this and that, and you go out to the field for 2 weeks. In the smallpox program, you were expected to spend 50% of your time out in the field. Now, we were younger then, but even so, those roads, I swear to God, it was like someone beat the hell out of me because of the rocks and the bouncing around. The smallpox program was really field oriented. I just wonder if you had the same program today, with modern technology, would you spend all your time answering emails and phone calls and not go out in the field? Drew: You wouldn't be as productive ultimately. LaPointe: Yes. Looking back on it, Atlanta pretty much left you alone, and they supported you. And CDC at that time, I think, was more flexible. Drew: They were a little less bureaucratic. LaPointe: Well, I think technology leads to bureaucratization. It's just, if you have the ability to communicate, you communicate. You see people yakking away on their cell phone, and you think, before cell phones, what did these people do? So, I don't know, technology is a mix, a double-edged sword. Drew: I think it is. One of the phenomena that I find fascinating is how frequently you'll see people who are not present in their present space. In other words, they're constantly emailing, calling. They're interacting with something that is far away and they're not, in a sense, fully present. I can't tell you the number of meetings that I've been in where you'll have everybody and their brother with their Blackberry on the table. LaPointe: My son-in-law works for Microsoft, and he said the same thing. In Gabon, General Sholiak [phonetic], who now is [unclear], and I got along very well. I think he had kids my age, and everyone else would be bracing and saluting because he was the general and they're all captains. And I'd say, "Hey, General, how are you doing? You look tired. You sleep okay?" But he liked me. I remember him telling me he went to Gabon for the first time in 1937, and he said he got off in Porjantee [phonetic], which is on the [unclear], took a Dogon canoe, went up to this hospital, and stayed there for 10 months. And sometimes he'd get a pack of mail. So he was almost lamenting telephones and e-mail. I don't know what the solution is. Computers are wonderful, but they're a terrible distraction. You know, the Africans say that-I'll translate it from the French- Drew: No, say it in French. LaPointe: In French, they say, le feast. It's a French expression that means that success is the son of everyone in the village, and failure is his mother's son. And so the smallpox was a success, so everyone bought into it. When I did the first draft of the smallpox history, I remember that everyone who was remotely associated with the smallpox program, took some credit. "Well, I did this," you know, or "I recruited this" or "We did that." Before I close, one cautionary tale. In the mid-'90s, I was in Cote d'Ivoire. They were having an AIDS meeting, and I was staying at a hotel with someone who was going to a dinner for the AIDS workers. And Kevin DeCock who is now, I think, the head of WHO, HIV/AIDS, he was saying that it would be wonderful if we could eradicate the disease, that then we could be like the smallpox people, who had these orgies of self-congratulations. And so I said I had been in smallpox." He said, "I didn't realize it was smallpox." I said, "We're everywhere." So success does generate things like that. If the program had been an abject failure, it would have been sort of swept into the outback someplace. We're lucky. You know, areas where we worked in Mali, I don't know how the hell we did this, but I took Diane. We went way up in the desert. Now you can't go up there. Drew: In terms of safety? LaPointe: Safety. The Tuaregs were on the warpath. They were pacified or brutalized, I don't know what the word is. But the area that I went up to in 1970, which is way up Keydal [phonetic], had a shootout out about a month ago between the Tuaregs and the army, with casualties. Sierra Leone, Guinea, Liberia are pretty much semi-failed states. Could we work there now? It's very iffy to be in the desert areas of Niger. When I was in Chad working for Guinea worm eradication, sometimes we were out with armed guards, guys with AK47s. Drew: And that's so qualitatively different-on so many different levels from what you're describing about your relationship with your drivers and nurses. LaPointe: You know, I went to a meeting once during the smallpox days, and my counterpart opened up his briefcase, and he had a gun in there, a pistol or something. And I said, "Geez, I didn't realize you were packing." And he said, "You were the only guy in that room without a gun." And he said, "I'll get you one." And I remember once we were in southern Chad and we went out to a village, and the district officer wanted to go. It was like an old Western. I mean, he reaches in and he gets a gun and sticks it in his belt, and takes a rifle out of the closet. Other people got shotguns, and off we went. I don't think we could have done that. We were lucky. It was an era where, if you looked at the history of Africa, it had the infrastructure of the colonial age, which, in many instances, has disappeared or hasn't been maintained. You had a lot of political people who were socialist. That's a bad word in this country. But they did have a conscience about health, and they supported it. If my memory serves me correctly, they dedicated something like 10% or 12% of the national budget to health. Well, the economies are stagnant now, and populations have doubled. I remember reading something about 40 years ago about the demographic history of India. I remember talking to Pat about it. I said, "You know, when you have population growth in this part of the world, these populations are going to be more than double in 40 years," and they have. But now Africa has stagnant economies, and so the per capita income for social services has gone from what I described down to 35 cents. Now, many of these countries can pay people, and that's about it. Everything else is dependent on foreigners or other things. And so we were lucky in a sense, is that we had- Drew: It was like you were in a perfect sort of a window. LaPointe: And then we had CDC just starting out and they didn't know how to boss people around. They let us alone. Everyone was young. You realized you had to spend a lot of time in the field. You had infrastructure that was still workable. Drew: Yes. LaPointe: And political stability in a sense. You could go almost anywhere in the country without safety concerns. But recently, when I went to Chad, the ambassador gave me hell. He said, "What are you doing down there?" I said, "Well, that's where Guinea worm is." "That's dangerous. You're not supposed to be going there." I said, "Well, what am I going to do?" And so we were lucky. As Napoleon said, he liked lucky generals, and we were lucky generals Drew: Mark, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this interview # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310127651&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158nt emory:158nt Subject The topic of the resource CDC Smallpox Eradication USAID WHO Operations Officer Endemic Disease Service Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 774640608 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Drew, Diane (Interviewer); CDC; Nurse LaPointe, Mark (Interviewee); CDC; Operations Officer Title A name given to the resource LAPOINTE, MARK Description An account of the resource Mark LaPointe served as an Operations Officer in Gabon and Mali. Mark highlights the measles aspect of the smallpox eradiction/measles control program, working with French medical structure such as Endemic Disease Service and other French institutions, seasonality, nomads, and a coup in Mali. Mark reflects on management strategies, lack of change at the village level after 40 years, today's burden of technology while working in the field, and comments on the changed political situation of many countries where the smallpox program once worked. Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/3e027e382c5eed16196c06d8cc7535a9.jpg f7d78b88df4e468df04a13d6b5b8f263 https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/9a83f5a9b21cf972ec1dc75d92eeb079.pdf c22f3d531c3cfceeb1968d7187a26c39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Ann Lourie on July 13, 2006, at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, about her involvement with the West African Smallpox Eradication Project. The interview is being conducted as part of a reunion marking the 40th anniversary of the launch of the program. The interviewer is Deborah Gould. Gould: Would you describe your early life, where you were born and had your education through high school? Lourie: I was born on Long Island, Flushing, New York, and I lived there until I was 10. My father died when I was 10, and my mother remarried, and we lived in Connecticut for a while. I went to a boarding school for 3 years, from the 7th to the 9th grade Finally, we moved back to Scarsdale and White Plains, New York. I went to high school at Scarsdale High School, and I went to college. Gould: How did you and your husband become involved in the smallpox eradication effort? Lourie: Well, we got married in 1960 and we had 3 children soon after, 2 years apart and 18 months apart. My husband was in the Public Health Service after he finished his internship, and then he went back and got a Master's in Public Health at Johns Hopkins. Our children were 5, 3, and 2. We discussed that we would like to do something really exciting before our children got to school age. Being interested in public health, he just heard about the program with CDC at that time, and we both thought it would be a terrific idea to do this. Gould: I understand you lived in Chad. Is that correct? Lourie: Yes. Gould: Describe what it was like living in Chad with 3 small children. Lourie: Well, it wasn't that bad really. When we first got there, we were in an apartment on the 1st floor, and it was hard because it was very small and very cramped. And the main front door had a space about 2 inches between the floor and the bottom of the door, so in the evening all these frogs would come in under that door, and they'd be jumping all over the room. That was really my first unpleasent experience. But anyway, after a month or so, we got moved into other quarters. There were 2 houses in a compound, 1 with Russell Charter and his wife, and a very nice 1-floor rental house for us. It had a living room, dining room, 2 bedrooms, and a bath. We had a swimming pool between the 2 houses, so that was nice because I taught my kids how to swim. So, physically, it was not that bad. Gould: What about dealing with some of the cultural differences? The markets are so unlike the States, where we've got a Publix or a Kroger grocery store on every corner. Lourie: Well, we had a market. We lived in the capital, which was then called Fort Lamy and is now something else with an N, N'Djamena, I believe. As far as I remember, there were no paved roads. The town was just 1 or 2 streets with little stores on both sides, and the marketplaces. One wonderful thing was that I had a cook and a houseboy who helped, so I didn't have to do laundry or cook. I did go shopping.for food. Occasionally, the cook would go shopping too. Culturally, we had a hard time at first. I started teaching English classes occasionally to adults, and so I needed someone to take care of my children. We had 1 houseboy, but I didn't want to give him that responsibility. So we hired this young girl to be a babysitter and take care of the children while I was gone, and she was there a few days. The kids always had their bath after dinner, and they were all bathed in the same tub. My 2-year-old was still in diapers at the time. So I went in to the bathroom for something. They were all in the tub. And she had taken the diaper and she was rinsing it out in the bathtub, . So, needless to say, she was fired, and I went on to the next. She couldn't help it. . She just didn't know any better. But anyway, we got another houseboy named Bartolomey, really very cute, short, smart little guy, and he wound up helping the other man and also taking care of the kids, and we had him the whole time we were there. Gould: You said the children were 5, 3, and 2? Lourie: When we got there, yes. Gould: And you were there for how long? Lourie: Two years. Gould: What about schooling for the 5-year-old? Lourie: He went to the 1st grade in the French school in town. I taught the Calvert system at home, in English, for the 1st grade, so that when we went back to the States, he could go into the 2nd grade. So he had both the French school and the Calvert system at home. The other 2 children weren't old enough, so they didn't go to school or any other kind of pre-kindergarten or kindergarten. Gould: Did they learn the language? Lourie: Yes. They all could speak basic French, but two of them didn't remember it when we came back. The oldest, who was 7 when we left, can speak fluent French to this day. Gould: That's wonderful. A good skill to have. Lourie: Yes. Gould: What was the toughest problem or problems that you faced? Lourie: I didn't really have any tough problems. Basically, I was living with servants whom I'd never had before in my life. You did had to be very careful what you did with your food, that you washed everything well, that you peeled everything, that you didn't drink water. But there were no real problems. We did go swimming and waterskiing in the Chari River. Now, when I talk about it, people say "You did that? You didn't get schistosomiasis?" And I say, "No." "When we went there, Dr. Pierre Ziegler was there, who was the French counterpart whom Bernie [Bernard Lourie] was working with. He told us that since the water was swift moving, it would be alright.I was talking to Rafe Henderson [Ralph H. Henderson] last night, and he said that he was always in the water and loved the water, and he said, "Oh, it's just fine, and we did this all the time." And that's what we did on the weekends. That was our entertainment. We would go waterskiing and picnicking and swimming in the Chari River with the hippos. Gould: Oh, my goodness! I hear they were pretty vicious. Lourie: Yes, they can be dangerous. We were lucky, we really were. I don't know what was wrong with me at the time. I didn't realize they could be dangerous. But physically, I didn't really have any hardships at home because I had a nice, comfortable house, and I took care of the kids and I was busy doing things with them and teaching them things. I would go out occasionally or play bridge with the gals about once a month. I was very happy. I had a wonderful time; my kids had a wonderful time. There were other American families. Russell and Sharon Charter were the only American families there from our CDC group. There were some ancillary workers, and we did socialize with them occasionally. And then there was Dr. Ziegler and his wife, who were French. We socialized with them a lot on weekends. Gould: So, during this time, was your husband out in the field most of the time? Lourie: Yes. He went out every day with a truck. Sometimes he would be gone for a couple of days. I can't remember any more how long exactly. It could have even been a week that they would go out for. So he would come and go. I only wish that I could have gone, too. Gould: Yes. Lourie: That was my wish. I thought, "Oh, if I didn't have any children, I could go and be with him every day." When he was in town daily, the day ended early. It ended about 2 o'clock. They'd come home, and we'd have our large meal in the afternoon, and that would be it. They would work from early morning, when he was in town, until around 2 in the afternoon. Gould: How early in the morning? Lourie: Quite early, maybe 6 or 7 AM. Gould: Was that a French system? Lourie: I don't know. It was a French colony at the time, and that was just the schedule. Gould: Can you recall any unique experiences or occurrences that you had when you were there that you would like to tell us about? Lourie: Well, besides the frogs, 1 funny thing occurred when we were still in the apartment. We had one houseboy, and while I was gone he had taken our white sneakers and covered them with Elmer's glue and then set them out in the sun to dry because he thought that was polish. They were stiff as a board. That was a funny experience. And then another thing. . .We normally never let the children swim with anyone.but ourselves. But we wanted to be sure that if we left them and they happened to go near the pool, that Bartholomey would know how to swim and what to do. So we asked him, "Can you swim? Do you know how to swim?" He said, "Oh, yes, yes, I can swim." So we took him to the pool. We said, "Okay, show us how you can swim." So he jumped in the pool and he almost drowned because he had no idea how to swim. I guess he was afraid he might lose his job- or he just didn't want to say that he couldn't swim. Just before we left to go back home, we went to a game park with wild animals. I had never been out at all to see the animals. So we had the 3 kids, and I think we were in a little Volkswagen in this park, and it was just the driver and our family. Six of us. We got stuck in the mud sometime during the afternoon, and we couldn't get out. So we were there all night, sleeping in the car. My middle son had an earache, and he was crying most of the night. The next morning, everything had dried up and we were able to get out. We went back to the main place and we said, "Why didn't you send someone out to look for us?" They didn't even know we were out there. Noone at all knew we were gone. So that was a little disconcerting. Gould: Did you encounter any animals during the night? Lourie: No, we didn't. I didn't even get out of the car. We were just huddled in there. Gould: They might have been curious and come up to it to find out what was in the car. That's amazing. It sounds like a wonderful adventure and opportunity. How did participating in the program, and being there, change your life? Lourie: I don't know really how it changed my life. I had traveled before I went to Africa. I'd been to Europe and I'd been to India, so it wasn't a complete culture shock .. But I found the Africans to be extremely warm, extremely friendly. There weren't that many higher-ups in town, and I didn't really socialize with higher-up Africans. But all the people that we had working for us and just had daily contact with, were just extremely nice, extremely open. I thought about the whole experience for a long time after we came back, and I thought it was wonderful for my children because they not only learned French, but they didn't have any prejudices at all when we came home-because in the '60s still- Gould: I hear you. Lourie: And so it was, I think, a good experience for them. And I remember it as being a wonderful time. Gould: What difference do you think it would have made if the spouses and children had not gone to Africa but had stayed home in the United States? Lourie: I think that would have been extremely hard, to be separated for 2 years. I don't think we would have gone if the program had said that I'd have to stay home. . That would have been too hard. Gould: Do you think that would have had an impact on the program at all? Lourie: I don't know. It would be hard to say. Probably. There certainly would have been many more singles. Gould: For that length of time, right. How did you prepare to go over? I mean, you were living in the United States, you had a home, you had a life here. Lourie: Well, we didn't have a home. We never owned a house 'til we came back from Africa. We were always renting. We rented a house in Baltimore, and then we came down here for the orientation. So we didn't have that many possessions, really, before we went over. We had a dog, though, a beagle, and we had to leave him behind. We weren't going to take a dog over to Africa. So that was hard for the children to separate from the dog. We'd had him about 2 or 3 years. Other than that, we didn't prepare, really. We took clothes, and that was it. We hoped we were going to have an adventure. Gould: Wow. It sounds like you did. If you could do this all over again, is there anything that you would change? Lourie: No. I'm sure all the other countries were different. Each country that everybody went to was an entirely different experience. But, no, there wasn't anything that I would change, just that I would have loved to have gone out on the trucks and done what they were doing if I had had no children.. Gould: You mentioned that you were teaching English. Lourie: Yes. Gould: Could you tell me a little bit more about that? Lourie: I can't really remember it that well.. I was trying to remember the other day. There were 2 adults, fairly educated adults, probably schooled in African schooling and they spoke French. They held positions in town, and they just wanted to learn English. I think I taught them in the late afternoon and the evenings, and I did this for a couple of months. But I can't really remember the details of the class. Gould: Had you previously taught? Lourie: No, no. I worked for 4 years before we were married, in bacteriology, but I had never taught before. Gould: So you learned another field while you were there. Lourie: Mm-hmm. Gould: Is there anything else that you would like to add or any particular stories that you would like to tell us about? Lourie: I really can't think of anything in particular, just that it was a wonderful experience. My husband had a marvelous time. And we had fun, too. The family had fun. And as I said, a major attraction was going out on that river every weekend. My 5-year- old learned how to waterski. The other 2 didn't, but he did. And they all swam; they could all swim from the age of 2. Gould: Was that your last time in Africa? Lourie: Yes. I did not go back. Gould: Or your children? Lourie: No, my children haven't gone back to Africa. Gould: Thank you for this interview. You have made a contribution. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310128227%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-Wvs5V&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-13-07 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158pz emory:158pz Subject The topic of the resource CDC Smallpox Eradication USAID WHO Life as expatriate wife Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 228263952 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gould, Deborah (Interviewer); CDC; Health Educator Lourie, Ann (Interviewee); CDC; Wife of Epidemiologist Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Centers for Disease Control Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Title A name given to the resource LOURIE, ANN Description An account of the resource Ann Lourie, wife of Bernard Lourie, who served as an Epidemiologist in Chad. Ann speaks of adjusting to life in Chad, living abroad with 3 young children, and relates family adventures. Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/39ed46c91bdb1476732b08e5f2e4c3e6.JPG 32687499f0714d9ee0066f9c36569ca1 https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/e0f226bf37f678c446589add4fd0fc1e.pdf 0f1d2df5de2ded7fa0b2ae8b01ef0733 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Jeannie Lythcott on July 17, 2006, at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, about her experience and involvement with the West African Smallpox Eradication Project. The interview is being conducted as a part of a reunion marking the 40th anniversary of the launch of the program. The interviewer is David Sencer. Sencer: Jeannie, do you want to tell me a little bit about your early years? Where were you born, what were your parents like? Lythcott: I was born in Leeds, in Yorkshire, England, and I was born in Leeds because my mom had to go to the hospital. I was the only 1 of her 5 children who had to be delivered in a hospital. We grew up in a little village called Rye Hill, partway between Leeds and Sheffield, a coal-mining town. My dad was the only child of coal miners, and he won a scholarship to go to the local grammar school, but his parents wouldn't pay the fee-what would be maybe a dollar, now-to go to that school. And so he was down in the mine at 14. He took himself to night school. He was drafted in World War II. He got in the Royal Signals Corps, and when he got home, he went to college on a program for servicemen. He became a science teacher and grew to become the headmaster of the only school in which he taught. So education for Dad was absolutely prime. Mom had gone to the local high school, and so they were both incredibly bright folks, and with 5 children. I was born in 1939, at the beginning of World War II, and some of my earliest memories are about gas masks and being evacuated. You know, bombs were dropped on Leeds. I grew up speaking Yorkshire, and our teachers spent a good 12 years trying to have us approximate the Queen 's English. This is how Yorkshire sounds. I'm going to give you a Yorkshire toast: [toast in Yorkshire, which Dr. Sencer can't understand] About 6% of students went to university in those days. I applied for and was accepted to Majesty University. Because our family was so poor, I got a scholarship from the government as a result of the 1944 Education Act. The government paid every penny for me-bus fare from home, food, everything-to go to university. If that had not been the case, I couldn't have gone. I taught in England for a couple of years and then decided that I wanted to go around the world, knowing somehow that my experience of education was limited by the British system. So my thought was that I would teach in former British colonies, where some things would be recognizable. And at that time, David, I was going to end up this grand tour of the globe in America, that being the far end of the spectrum. And after that, I was going to go home and become headmistress of a school for girls. I began in Ghana. I arrived in August of 1962. George Lythcott and his 4 teenage children, ages 12 to16, had arrived in Accra with an American team the month before I got there. He was there as Deputy Director of a medical research team to help Ghana build a national health institute manned by Ghanaian scientists and molded after NIH [National Institutes of Health]. We lived very close to each other. I met the family on September 9, about a month after I arrived, and we became very, very close very quickly. It's amazing. George had to go back to the United States in October or November of that year. Three of the children, Ruthie, George, and Mike, were in boarding school in Achimota, so they would be taken care of while he was gone. The youngest one, Steven, was going to a day school, an American international school. So I went to see George the night before he was to leave for 9 weeks to go back to the United States. His household goods hadn't yet arrived from America. We were relative strangers, you understand. I sat there in his house helping him to pack his bag, and he kept giving me money. He gave me 3 blank, signed checks just in case anything happened to his children. I mean, his trust in me from the start, it was amazing when I think about it. And so we worked side by side. I was there to teach physics, chemistry, biology, and mathematics to girls who were given a scholarship. They were bypassing secondary school and being prepared for a degree nursing program, which was unusual in 1962. So that's what I was doing there, and continued to do, until December 1965. Kwame Nkrumah [the first Prime Minister of Ghana] had fallen into disfavor with the American government, and as a result of some of the things that had happened, the United States decided to pull out most of George's team. There were 22 scientists of different disciplines there. The United States decided to pull most of them out as a political statement, but the Ghanaian scientist with whom they'd been working made a plea to the American Ambassador at the time to say, "Can't we keep a scientist-to-scientist relationship?" And so George stayed with 1 technician. But I had upset the Ghanese government, so my contract was not renewed in 1965. Sencer: How did you upset them? Lythcott: In the summer of '65, those who taught in this pre-nursing program said that, for the first time, they were willing to leave as a group (they were very close friends) to go on vacation because they felt that they could leave the college in my hands. We were on vacation, and they felt that they could leave the administrative details to me and they would come back at the beginning of school. Around this time, we had administered an entrance exam to over 2,000 girls from all over Ghana. We had announced in the newspaper when the exam would be given and when we would announce the results. And those results were to be given on a specific date, maybe September 28 or something. While the women were gone, the Minister of Education in the government called up the college and wanted to know whether his niece had been accepted for the pre-nursing program. And so my reply was that the exams had been scored, but we hadn't done the final analysis, and as we had reported in the paper, all of the results would be available at the same time to the public on September 28. I had the good sense to write that in a letter to the director of the college. But he didn't like what I'd done; he just didn't like it. But I stood my ground. So I wasn't expelled from the country, but my contract wasn't renewed. I'm not sure of the details of how this happened, but I ended up working for NIH in Ghana for 6 months on the Burkett's tumor project. I was responsible for getting the tissue samples, getting the osmium tetroxide, and we did 2 other lab manifuplations and then. I hand-carried the samples in dry ice to a plane at midnight to get to Washington, D.C. So that was my last 6 months in Ghana. And then, in November or December of '65, George met D. A. [Donald A. Henderson] in New York somewhere, and they'd talked about the smallpox program. So, in January and February, I think, he was roaming around the 20 countries to be in the eradication effort, getting the agreements signed. We got married in Ghana on January 17, 1966, in an incredible ceremony. So there I was. George headed off to get these agreements signed. We came back to Atlanta in that summer to help get the team oriented to Africa.. So those are my beginnings. Let me tell you 1 other thing. It relates to where I am now. When I was at the University of Manchester, I had applied, on the basis of recommendation from my professor, for a Ph.D. program in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. There was an interesting morphological problem. There was a weed in the prairies; when you pulled up a plant, if you left any little piece of root, each root had the possibility of making a whole new plant. So the weed was noxious from that point of view. They wanted somebody to study that plant from a morphological perspective. So I got the scholarship. It paid for everything, but I couldn't afford to get there. The professor said he made every effort to try to get me there and found a scholarship from the Dreyfus Company, $1,600, $1,700, something like that. It was a scholarship for post-university work at any college or university in our dominions or colonies, but it stipulated that it was for a male student. And they said they were so happy if somebody would try to change it, but it would take them 5 years. So I went into teaching. Sencer: You got married instead. Lythcott: Yes. I met George. That derailed my whole plan. Yes. Sencer: You came here in '66 for the training course? Lythcott: Yes, yes. Sencer: Was this your first experience in the States? Lythcott: No. My first time in the United States was 1968. We'd been married in '66, and I was still a British citizen. We found out that when an American official was part of the diplomatic corps, marries an alien overseas, and is returning to post overseas, that the residency requirement for US citizenship is waived, which makes good sense. Also, you can be naturalized in any court that's meeting. So in 1968, I took all of the steps to come in on an immigration visa. I had studied up the kazoo. We found out that the federal court was meeting in Washington, D.C. I was in New York, pregnant, so I went up for the day to Washington, D.C. to take this exam. I took the oath, in a very moving ceremony. It came time for the exam. Well, I had studied. This judge sat there, and he said, "How many arms of government?" "What do we call this form of government?" Then the next question was, "So tell me what you know about the Executive Branch." And in all seriousness, I said to him, "You mean everything I know?" And he looked at me, over the top of his glasses, and he said, "Well, why don't you just start, and I'll tell you when to stop." Well, I started, and I had this down. It was like unpacking the files from memory, you know, and so on and so on I went. He didn't ask me another single question. It was amazing. Sencer: So, in the smallpox program when you went back after '66, George had traveled around getting the agreements signed. Lythcott: Right. Sencer: And then what happened? Lythcott: Most of the agreements were signed, but not all, when we came back for the training program here in 1966. Nigeria was still the very difficult one. And if I recall, 50% of the population was in Nigeria, and I don't know if 50% of the smallpox cases were there also, but without Nigeria, this program made no good sense. Back then, CDC had a program in Atlanta for the families while the guys were going through their training. There were some cultural events for children. So George went off for a week to Nigeria to get the agreement signed. But when he got there, all of these hostilities between the north and the east had just erupted, and nobody, but nobody, was interested in thinking about a smallpox eradication-measles control program. So it is my understanding that he did everything that he could. And people would check in with him. It wasn't easy to make long-distance calls back in those days. You could hear the ocean, I think, in the background. You had to book your call 3 hours ahead of time. And so, when we knew a call had been booked, I would actually be in the hallway, waiting. D. A. and Billy and various people would be there, and I'd just wait in the hall outside for messages. George was an incredibly social person; he had people skills up the kazoo. It's funny, because at the same time, he was also very much of a homebody and a loner. He would say often things like, "I don't care about anything else, just as long as I've got you and my baby at home." But when he was out there, he had people skills up the kazoo. And people found themselves talking to him easily. He adored women, and women adored him. From his days in Ghana, he knew about the underworld, you know, those CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] spies, and so on. Actually, the CIA tried to recruit George, and George came home and told me about all of it. But he told some of the things that they knew about him and about me, and I said, "I don't think you need to be a part of that." So he gave it up, although it would have meant a whole lot of money, which would have been helpful with 4 children. But he was used to that, sort of thinking, where messages can be passed back and forth that can ameliorate situations before they erupt. He was used to that sort of level of conversation. So George was at a cocktail party in Lagos He'd been there about 6 or 7 weeks. And nobody knew much about the new young leader of Nigeria, General Yakubu Gowan. As president of the federation, he was in the middle of Yoruba country, but he was from the Jos Plateau. So he didn't have his own people, his own tribe, around him. So it must have been very tenuous for him in the beginning. And so it was hard for George to find connections with him because there weren't many in that milieu. So George was at this party, chitchatting with the wife of one of the Yoruba diplomats there whom he'd come to know. And George said to this lady-it was very serendipitous-"He's such a handsome young man. And he's not married, I hope. This is the army," some conversation like this. And the woman leaned over and she said, "Oh, no, he has a girlfriend." And so it was through that contact that George then arranged an introduction with. the girlfriend [I believe mistress would be a more apt term. djs] And so George told the young woman about the smallpox program, what it would mean to children in all the 20 countries, and that if Nigeria didn't sign, there would be no program. He gave her that understanding, and she went to the President the next day, and there it was the signed agreement.. Yeah. Sencer: As you say, he had people skills. Lythcott: Oh, he did, he did. Sencer: Did you do much traveling with George, or were you a homebody? Lythcott: I did some, but not much. Once the civil war erupted, we were told by the American government that they were not requiring dependents to leave but that if we left, we couldn't come back. So I actually did very little traveling. I went to Abidjan, to that meeting. And then little Julie was born in November of 1967. Sencer: Where was she born? Lythcott: In Lagos, Nigeria. Sencer: Which hospital? Lythcott: It was a Nigerian hospital on the mainland. She was delivered by midwives at the hospital. George brought my mother from England to visit us, so she came for about 3 weeks, the first and only time she ever flew in an airplane. So, of necessity, we were home. Sencer: You want to tell us some of George's printable exploits? Lythcott: One that I didn't tell the other night was about Colonel Labusquiere leader of OCEAC [Organization de Coordination pur la Lutte contre Endemies d'Afrique Central]; he was a formidable character. As I remember it, he wasn't at all persuaded that the Americans had any role in the OCEAC countries; he thought that the French were doing just fine, thank you very much. In the case of smallpox, I think he was absolutely right, but measles control was something he would gladly give up. But as George used to describe him, the Colonel was just puffed up with national pride. Any notions that Americans were going to be coming to help them were just impossible. So we were in Lagos, and we got a call that Colonel Labusquiere, his wife, and his mother, who was traveling with them from France to visit them in Cameroon (I think that's where they lived), were going to have to lay over in Lagos, Nigeria, because there was something wrong. They couldn't fly all the way. I don't know what it was. But they were arriving in Lagos, and of course they would stay with us. And I was in a panic now. What are we going to do? So we've got Labusquiere, this formidable character. As far as I knew, he spoke very little English. And his mother was coming too. Sencer: Right. Lythcott: So I put the word out among the wives of those who worked in the regional office-Bonnie Flanders [Bonnie Jean Flanders], Ilze [Ilze Henderson], and Dotty Hicks [Dorothy Hicks] and so on-that if anybody, anywhere, had any French literature-magazines, books, anything-that I could at least put in their rooms, to let me know. One of them came up with a magazine, and I got the guestrooms ready. And you know how they did things in 1966. So I put the magazine down on the bedside table for the mother, and just flipped it open to a page, and placed it next to a little vase of flowers. It turns out the page depicted a vineyard, and this was their property. So completely serendipitous! There it was. The next morning, the mother said, "How did you know?" So they come, we're struggling through, in French. You know, the astonishing thing about George was that he didn't speak other languages, at least not at this point. He would have a few words here and there, but that was a tribute to his people skills as well. It was all eye contact and body language. Anyway, we're struggling through dinner. I think Ilze and Rafe [Ralph H. Henderson] came. I was struggling with my French. I hadn't used it in a long, long time, but it seemed to be okay. And we were getting through. It was a kind of a nice occasion. So the next morning, at breakfast, we got up. I mentioned that I hoped that they had spent a pleasant night, and so on. And all of a sudden the colonel begins speaking in English that is much better than my French. That old son-of-a-gun. Sencer: Yeah. Lythcott: And so he said that it had been a wonderful visit, and he said the first thing that he needed to do was to toast George because in one 24-hour period, this man had caused his mother and his wife to fall in love.. And that's when the conversation about the vineyards came up. He thanked us for the evening and how they appreciated us trying to put this together. And George always thought that was a turning point in that relationship. You have all of the other stories about the passports and things, I'm sure. Sencer: Well, we don't have them in your words. Actually, I don't think those were recorded the other night, about filling in his passport. Lythcott: George was traveling with Jay Friedman [Jay S. Friedman]. I think they were trying to go into Abidjan. George realized, as he's going up to passport control, that this [unclear]. "I still have these passports. Maybe I should send those to CDC. That would be fun, wouldn't it?" with all the extra pages stuck in, and so on and so on. And so he looked and found that his visa had expired the day before. What was he going to do? Somebody else goes through, and then George comes along. The passport officer was a young woman. So George said to her, in his own inimitable style, "Hello, honey. How are you doing? May I borrow your pen?" And so she said, "Here's one." So she took out a pen, gave it to George, and on the desk right in front of her, he drew around the outside edge of the visa and changed the date. So the date was, I don't know, tomorrow. So if it said the 17th, he changed it to the 19th or something, right there. And he gave her his passport, returned her pen, and she said, "Fine, thank you very much. Have a good day, big boy." Another time I think he just ripped out the old page of his passport with the old visas that were attached and put it in his passport. And then there was the time, it was Julie's first birthday, so November 28, 1968, George had been at a conference with a whole lot of other people in Congo Brazzaville. I'm not sure why, but George didn't get on the plane to come to Lagos as we had thought. But he had let me know that he had invited 3 Russian physicians to Thanksgiving at our house. This was a big deal because George cooked the turkey. George could cook like you wouldn't believe. He put it on a spit on the grill outside. And I was allowed nowhere near this machine. So I expecting George home, and he didn't come, and about 10 o'clock in the morning, the 3 Russian physicians arrived. And I'm panicking a little bit. I have the turkey all dressed, it's all ready to go, but I haven't heard from George. It's Julie's first birthday. I knew he was going to be there if he could. And nobody seemed to know what had happened to him. Finally, about noon, totally unexpectedly, George breezed in through the front door, dropped his suitcase and his coat, and went right into the kitchen and said, "Is the turkey ready?" and I said, "Yes." And so I followed behind him, and he said, "Did the Russians come?" I said, "Yes, they're outside by the pool." And he said, "Oh, by the way, your brother said to say hello." My brothers are both in England. It made no sense to me. But later, as I got the story, he had persuaded the people in Congo Brazzaville that he absolutely had to get to Lagos, Nigeria, he just had to. And so they entered into this whole problem-solving with him. You know, that was the art, that he got people to problem-solve with him. So they said, "Well, we can't get you to Lagos, but we can get you to Rome, and maybe you can get home from Rome." Know this. This was all on the ticket from Congo Brazzaville to Lagos, so there was no extra charge or anything involved here. And so he got to Rome, and the same spiel, and he tells a story and, of course, he's been talking to the stewardesses on the plane. It's like he's got the whole world looking out for him. They sent him to London in time to get the flight-BOAC, I think it was-from London to Nigeria. While he was in London, he called my brother. Oh, man. Sencer: What were some of your high points in Africa, besides having Julie? Lythcott: Well, that was definitely the high point. I think the only big conference that I knew about was the one that we had in '69 in Lagos. It must have been in the spring. Most of the photographs that I sent are from that conference. I remember 2 things about that conference. One is that George was bound and determined to have a diplomatic coup, which was that all of these contiguous countries would finally agree that a smallpox outbreak could be attended to by the smallpox vaccination team that was closest to the site, regardless of which side of the border the team was on. And this was huge. So that from Nigeria, you could go into Niger, and vice versa, for the purpose of containing smallpox. And they reached that agreement at that meeting. So that was a high point for George. The other thing was that George had arranged-he was so proud of this-for a sophisticated method of simultaneous translation. Translators were sent in from Geneva, and they were set up in little booths. But, of course, it was dependent on the electricity working, and West Africa being West Africa at the time, electricity working was not something that you could count on. So George had requested that the translators be able to move into consecutive translation as well. Well, that's what happened. The electricity went out. And I have this fabulous memory of these translations, which were really improvisational performances. When the translator was translating from the French into English, the shoulders would go back and be squared, the neck would be buttoned up, elbows tucked in, and the correct accent. And then the same guy, when translating from English to French, would tousle his hair, undo his shirt, and he'd be scratching and all kinds of things. It was an absolutely wonderful performance. I sought them out afterwards at the cocktail party, and they said what a joy it was for them to go back to this old skill that they used to have but didn't get to use anymore. Sencer: Was one of them mustached? Lythcott: Definitely. The other was a young woman who was on one of those photographs. I remembered her name: Eleanor Trench I think one of them may have been in that photograph. Sencer: The mustached one was one of the WHO's [World Health Organization] translators, and he was just magnificent, just magnificent. Lythcott: It must have been him. Sencer: As you said, he would fall right into whichever language he was working in. He was great. Why do you think things worked so well in Africa, or worked as well as they did? Lythcott: You know, that's a complicated question. But I was thinking about Bill Foege's presentation, the final one at the seminar the other day. Bill's thought was that nobody really believed that they could pull it off. There may have been an exception because I know George believed it. He came back from meeting with D. A., and he didn't say, "We're going to try to eradicate smallpox." He said, "We're going to eradicate smallpox," you know-and control measles. The question for him was not whether it could be done. It was just, how in the world are we going to get it done? So he believed it. I don't know who did the interviewing, but given the issues of racism and lack of cultural sensitivity in our nation at that time, the selection of those young folks was amazing. But it also may have been their youth. Because they were very young, you know. When you're 23, 24, 28 years old and if you're smart, you do believe you can do anything. I thought I could run any school in the world better than anybody else who was doing it at that time. Sencer: You probably could. Lythcott: Yeah. So it's that chutzpah of youth. But I think the fact that there was a very small American presence in each country was a fabulous decision. I think if there'd been 10 CDCers per country, they would have coalesced into a tight little team, whereas being only 1 or 2, they trained their counterparts and worked with them; that was critical to this process. But because there was usually only 1 in every country and the medical officer covered several countries, there was a sense that you were not entirely isolated. And that's why George traveled 70% of the time. I calculated it. He was gone from Lagos 70% of the time. He needed to do that. He needed to have them know that somebody was on the ground caring about things. And, you know, he did a lot of caring for families. . So I think it was that. So there was the animus of can-do. I think the other thing was that there was probably a little of that rambunctious devilry in all of these young people- sort of an obstinacy that, if you hit a wall, it wasn't going to get you down. It was just something to get over. I think there was that. Clearly, for the team from the United States, that link, also incredibly tenuous-you know, how long it took to make an overnight call; you sent telegrams, and relied on a way of communicating that seems so old when we compare it to today's world-but that link, tenuous as it was, was also incredibly strong. I don't think for a minute that George ever thought that there was anyone back in the United States that would say no, would say we can't do it. It was that can-do spirit again. And you have to give credit truly to the country nationals also. It wouldn't have worked if they hadn't wanted it to work. There were more ways than we could ever invent in our culture for not getting it done in West Africa. Do you remember when Rafe and somebody went to the subcontinent to try to help WHO get that off the ground? I think they were there for about 3 weeks for an initial conversation with the Ministry of Health. So for 3 weeks, they'd met with the Minister of Health. He had been very courteous, very engaging. They'd had wonderful conversations. But there wasn't anything happening, nothing! And it was about time for them to come home. They had reached a level of maximum frustration, so they requested a meeting with him. And he said, "Welcome, and good journey home" and so on. And they said, "Before we go, we need to tell you how frustrating this is. We thought we might be able to go home and report that something had been done." And he said- and this is the line, the actual quote-"What would you do if a friend, as a gift, gave you an elephant? We can't cope with that big thing!" So the country nationals, they could have found ways to not get it done, to not enter into the problem-solving. And you have to believe that it was because they knew what a gift it was to keep children well. Sencer: I'm now giving editorial comment. So many of the people that went from the United States had worked in state health departments, where they saw their job not to be the leader, but to get behind the leader and gently push: Let's get this done; let's get this done. And I think a lot of that was part of the success in Africa, that they recognized the primacy of the native leaders. Lythcott: Yes. Sencer: And recognized that there were ways to get them to move. Lythcott: Mm-hmm, yeah. Sencer: I notice you're wearing a bracelet. Lythcott: Yes. Sencer: Tell me about it. Lythcott: I will. One of the extraordinary things about that time, which is evident for all of us who came this weekend, is that it was a short time in our lives. I'm 67 years old. The smallpox program was 3 years; Ghana, before that, lasted 4 years. Seven years is a very small part of a lifetime, but it was life-changing. We all learned things. We all learned a way of being there. We weren't there as art collectors; we weren't there out of curiosity. We were there as national, you know, the old National Geographic notion of, will there be curiosities? Jim Lewis [James O. Lewis] was telling a story on Saturday night about how the truck he was in had driven into this pond or this mud in the road, and the driver had assured them that they would get out. They were knee-deep in mud. People just turned up on bicycles and helped them get this truck out of the mud and refused payment and seemed offended to having even been offered it. And Jim said that since then, he always stops to help on the roadside. So, my point being that we all have remembrances of that. So, I've put on umpteen numbers of pounds, so I can't wear my African clothing anymore. I just have 1 dress that I can wear. But I wear it often. When I put it on, it puts me back in that part of the world. So the other day I was co-teaching a course with a professor friend of mine at Stanford. He was delayed considerably. When he got there, he said he'd had trouble with his car on the way. I said, "Now I'm going to use an Africanism at Stanford." He had trouble with his car. And my immediate response was, "Oh, sorry." And he said, "Don't be sorry. It's not your fault." And I said, "It's the West African sorry," sorry that the world did this to you. Another memory, when Georgia died. In Nigeria, if they came to your office and you weren't there, there was this phrase, "I came and I met your absence." It's the notion that there's a presence of your absence as well as the absence of your presence. And they're not the same. Sencer: You mentioned life-changing.. How did it change your life? Lythcott: It taught me that I needed to revise my sense of my own country. I needed to give up this notion of glorious British history and acknowledge that some of British history was an inglorious thing. Nobody had taught me in England about our role in the slave trade, or that there even was one. I specialized in the sciences. I gave up studying history at Henry VII to specialize in the sciences. But I don't think that they taught that in British schools anyway. How the raj came to be is an incredibly important issue. I had to reshape how I walked on planet Earth. So I think that that made me, as a human being, open to the difficulty of understanding cross-cultures and being with cross-cultures. One of the things that we talk about in academia is this notion of white privilege and how hard it is when you are in the position of privilege, which is almost always tacit. You just don't know yourself well enough to be think across cultures. So I think it did that for me. And the experience taught me the role of sharing, of not holding onto objects too hard, of the extended family, of what you have you have to share, and that kind of thing. And so, in lots of ways, George and I became who we were as a result of being in Africa. So I just wanted to say that now, Julie, our daughter, and her husband and her 2 children, and I pooled our resources and we bought a house together in Palo Alto. We never could have done it on our own resources. So we're living together under the same roof, a situation fraught with potential dangers, you know, the old mother-daughter thing, your mother-in-law. And we said at the outset that we knew it was going to be difficult and that we wouldn't hide it under the table. We'd make sure that we put it on top. It's been such an incredible journey for Julie and I. Julie is all set to write a book about it. One of the incredible things about George was that he never stopped living. He changed his mind on some really big things as an older person, as a 60-odd-year-old, as a 72-year- old. It's quite astonishing, you know. But I think once you've been in a situation where your whole world, the things that you're sure about, have to be totally examined, you can see yourself whole and confident and competent, having gone through that change. Sencer: Yes. What's Julie doing now? Lythcott: Julie is dean of freshmen at Stanford, and just newly promoted to associate vice-provost. She just completed her 4th year, and they absolutely adore her. Every year they've changed her role and brought her more into the centrality of what's happening at the university. This year, one of the things she initiated was that the incoming freshmen would read 3 books, or they could choose 1 of 3. Stanford will have the authors there, during orientation, so that there will be a conversation between the authors and the freshmen. They chose books on Afghanistan, Haiti, and a collection of short stories about mothers and daughters. Sencer: Carrying On the Tradition. Lythcott: Carrying On the Tradition. That's exactly right. She has George's oratorical skills, and she has George's charisma. You know, I saw George walk into a typical West African cocktail party (that's how people there spent their evenings), into a gathering of 80 people, and the room changed when he walked in. He had that power. Julie has that power too. Sencer: I'll tell you a story about George. We were in Mali and going out to the Dogon country. This was at the time of the 25th millionth vaccination. And we stopped at a little rest house way out in the middle of nowhere. At that time, Mali was very Chinese dominated. We walked in to the rest house. George was in a big orange jumpsuit. There were 3 Chinese in there, and they came over to him thinking him to be Malian, and George said, "Howdy, brothers!" And those Chinese turned tail and left, realizing he was an American. Lythcott: Oh, man! Yeah. George was with the first team that went into China after Nixon went. And then he went a second time. The second time, he was walking on the Great Wall of China, and he heard someone call out behind him, "George Lythcott?" Can't help Can I just tell you how D.A. looked after us in Atlanta? Sencer: Please. Lythcott: We were living in a motel, and D. A. was persuaded that trouble was brewing in the motel. We were breaking the segregation laws in several states at that time. I know that. And so he moved us for the duration to the apartment of at Unitarian minister. And then, while we were still here, George had to go to Washington for some reason, I'm not sure why. We were newly married that year, and I had hardly seen George. You know, he'd been roaming around West and Central Africa since we got married. Three days after we got married, he left. And then he was gone for 9 weeks in the summer. So George said, "I want you to come with me." The idea was that we would go on the overnight train from Atlanta to Washington, getting into the Washington on the sleeper train at 6:30 in the morning. But D. A. was very worried about us, as was George. So they got the plan together, which was that both George and D. A-and I don't know how tall D. A. is, about 6'; George was 6'2½"-with their raincoats on, unbuttoned, would get to the railroad station, with me, and then we would walk fast. I'm 5'½" tall. Their raincoats would flap open, and I would be hidden behind these raincoat flaps, and they would hustle me on the train. And that's what they did. And all was well. And then the last thing involved the chairman of the department in Oklahoma. He had come from Mississippi and had been told at his interview, "We have a black American on the faculty. How do you feel about it?"And the man had said, "Oh, just fine, just fine." And then a week or 2 after he became department chair, he called George in and said, "You need to know that I can't have anyone on my faculty whom I can't invite home to dinner." Later, that same guy applied for a position to Johns Hopkins. All we knew was George got a brown paper envelope. In it was a letter of application from this guy, and D. A.'s response on a little office memo. D. A. just wrote on it, "Turn of the screw." So D. A. looked after us in really important ways. Sencer: Yes. Well, thank you for talking. Lythcott: Oh, you're welcome. Sencer: And we'll sign off now at 10:25. Thank you very much. Lythcott: Thank you. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310129775%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-3IgEq&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-16 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158q3 emory:158q3 Subject The topic of the resource Smallpox Eradication USAID WHO CDC Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 585786768 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sencer, David (Interviewer); CDC; Former Director of CDC Lythcott, Jeannie (Interviewee); CDC; Wife of Regional Director Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Centers for Disease Control Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Title A name given to the resource LYTHCOTT, JEAN Description An account of the resource Jeannie Lythcott, widow of George Lythcott, who was the Director of the West African Regional Office of the Smallpox Eradication Program in Lagos Nigeria from 1966-69. Jeannie, originally from England, tells how she came to work in Ghana and met and married George. She narrates some of her husband's escapades working for the Smallpox Eradication Program and how it changed her life. Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/a661fea7dee214a20ea9e7271f5ef133.jpg 7cde4355f210715732bf6ac981f302e1 https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/e327786249e1e9de0297f0448fc8d2fc.pdf 9319854875dbb7a21d3da048a4012eab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Anthony R. Masso on July 14, 2006, at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, about his involvement with the West African Smallpox Eradication Project. The interview is being conducted as part of a reunion marking the 40th anniversary of the launch of the program. The interviewer is Kata Chillag. Chillag: So, what we want to hear is any stories. We have a series of issues we'll want to cover, but it's a bit loose. So, the first is, how did you come to public health as a career? Masso: I was in the Peace Corps for several years before joining the Smallpox Eradication Program. I saw a piece in the Bulletin that CDC [Centers for Disease Control] and the World Health Organization (WHO) were about to launch a smallpox eradication- measles control program in Africa. I was interested in continuing my international experience, learning another language, and doing something good. So I decided to send in an application. I also thought it was a good thing to do in the '60s instead of going to Vietnam. After my application went in, I was interviewed by D. A. Henderson [Donald A. Henderson], the WHO Director at that time. We met in Washington, DC, in a bar, and over a couple of beers he said, "Hey, listen, you're great for the program. Come and join us," and that was it. Chillag: Where had you been in the Peace Corps? Masso: In Latin America. So it was a completely different experience to go from Panama in Latin America to Africa. Chillag : And where were you in Africa? Masso: Niger. Chillag : And so, what was your role in the smallpox program? Masso: My role was to be the operations officer along with a medical officer, Don Moore [Donald J. Moore]. Together, we formed the team of about 16 West African health workers, all male. The West African health workers, the nurses, were men; no women. It was a Muslim country. I'm sure that's the reason. And with about 25 trucks, our job was to go throughout the entire country and make sure everyone got vaccinated and to contain any outbreak that we saw. Chillag : What were your expectations of the work? Masso: Well, there was no real expectation other than knowing that it was hard work and that the conditions would not be good. I had lived in the United States, a privileged citizen with all the modern conveniences. And even as a Peace Corps volunteer, although there were no real conveniences, Panama had a lush environment, with greenery and the ocean. To go to a desert country, Niger, the size of Texas and California combined, with a hundred miles of paved road in the entire country and virtually all desert and mountain, and to see people live at the edge of existence was quite a different experience completely. There was no way to prepare for that. Our training was mostly to learn French and to study epidemiology, but it didn't prepare us for the life in that country. Chillag : And what were you most prepared for? You mentioned the sort of people living at the edge of existence. Masso: Well, we were prepared to do the work. We knew what we were there for, so from a technical point of view, we knew how to operate the equipment, how to maintain the vaccines, how to map out each town we were going to for vaccination. I remember one of my first impressions was seeing people living as they did 2,000 years ago, during the time of the Bible. You saw people literally with no more than one little clay pot and a little fire and a few seeds. and certainly no meat or anything-there are no conveniences at all-moving from place to place on the back of a donkey. I mean, it was exactly the way the world was 2,000 years ago. And many parts of that country are like that today. So there's very, very little progress. The country is exceptionally poor, large and vast, no real resources, no real agriculture. There's almost no rainfall. I remember many times I'd say to myself, people shouldn't be living in places like this. Not very hospitable. But our job was to contain the disease and wipe it out over a period of a couple of years, which we did, of course. Chillag : What were your specific living conditions? Masso: Our personal living conditions were good because we were attached to the American Embassy, and they gave us a small ranch- style house with a couple of bedrooms and a kitchen. We had air- conditioning, we had nice furniture, which was brought in just for the smallpox program. We had a car for our family as well as a truck that we would use for our work. We had servants, a houseboy. That was the norm. So the living conditions weren't bad at all. We were all young, and we didn't care that much to have super luxury. Chillag : And you traveled around the country. Masso: We traveled around the entire country. We worked so hard. We would try to schedule the trips to go to look at certain villages to see if smallpox was still rampant. Don and I would try to schedule a trip on a Thursday or toward the end of the week so we could travel and do the work outside the capital city on the weekend, on Saturday and Sunday, then come back during the beginning of the week to do anything we needed to do back at the health ministry. It was an arduous type activity because we'd be out for sometimes days at a time, and on big long trips, sometimes a couple of weeks at a time away from home, with no communications, no cell phones, no faxes, no telephones. When we were gone, we were really gone. Chillag : And you were there with your wife too. Masso: I was there with my wife. She was pregnant when we arrived. We had 2 children born to us while we were in Africa, which was a little bit unusual, although not too unusual. There were several people who had children there. And it was because we were young and we had both been in the Peace Corps that we were able to endure the conditions. But even others who hadn't had a prior international experience did fine. Being young and well motivated, I think I always rolled with the punches. Chillag : You had to work, I'm sure, with lots of local partners. What was that like? Masso: Well, the work with local partners was mostly frustrating because what you expect in a counterpart in a country like that is different from what reality is. Their motivation, especially at the higher echelons, was how to do the minimal amount of work and take a lot of credit, and they just didn't have the drive that we did. We were very focused on what we had to get done. Now, on the local level, with the people who worked "under us," who were the health nurses, it was completely different. I mean, we'd get up at a 4:30 AM, 5 o'clock in the morning and we were off. We would travel all day long, 12 or 14 hours, to get to a location. We'd work all night setting up camp. These people, the vaccination teams, would go out in the worst of conditions to perform the vaccinations. So they would work very hard and very long with meager pay and meager food available to them. But at the Ministry of Health, where the bureaucrats were, it was completely the opposite. They just saw this as a free ticket for them. Chillag : Was there general receptivity at a government level to the program as a whole? Masso: Yes, there was. These countries really are developing or Third World countries, and they knew that the United States was coming in with lots of equipment, lots of money, talented Americans, to "give them something" that they wanted and needed to improve their health. But it was also free, and so they were very receptive to opening their doors and getting the equipment and the opportunity to do something in public health. We encountered no resistance to our work at all from any government leaders or local chieftains. We were there to do good, and they knew it. Chillag : Were there any particular cultural differences that were very striking to you or very challenging to you in living there? Masso: Well, I remember having learned in the history of medicine that the little lighted, red-and-blue swirly cone with a white background that you still see today outside of barber shops, symbolized blood. Because the old barbers were blood letters, even in Europe and in this country, 150 years ago. When a person was really sick, they would let out blood. I had thought this was a practice that you only read about in history. When we got there, sure enough, there were practitioners right outside our office-a modern office with maps on the wall and vaccines that came from the States and the latest in hydraulic vaccination equipment. There would be people out there paying some practitioner to cut their backs or their arms and put suction devices on them to pull blood out. They thought if they were being bled, it would cure them of a headache or a stomachache or whatever it was. So that was a weird practice. There are a lot of Muslim practices that were unusual: the feast of Ramadan, where they'd fast every day for 40 days and not eat until sundown; slaughtering of animals in a ritualistic Islamic way; preparing sheep, kind of skewered, spread-eagled, which is called mishlee [phonetic], roasting the sheep. So we saw plenty of unusual practices. But after a while, they just became part of life. We didn't see them as strange; we saw them as part of their culture. And I think that's the way it's supposed to be. Chillag : What do you think was the biggest challenge about the work? Masso: I think the biggest challenge for us was the logistics. It was unbelievably difficult. We were forced to use American Dodge trucks, which was unfortunate because we should have been using Land Rovers. The trucks broke down frequently; axles would break. It got so bad that we'd have axles air-freighted in from Detroit to Niger at a humongous cost just because we had to use American equipment. And Niger was not like the coastal countries, like Ghana or Nigeria, where you drove on paved roads. We were in mountainous dirt-road locations, with these trucks that just wouldn't keep up. So the logistics of that, plus moving the vaccine around, keeping measles vaccine refrigerated where there was no refrigeration, was a big problem. And getting around the country, I mean, the size of Texas and California combined, with a small team and doing all of that in a couple-year period was very challenging. But, nonetheless, we got it done. Chillag : Yes. What were the biggest rewards? Masso: Well, the reward was very simple. I didn't realize that, in a couple of years, we would actually be able to see that there was no more smallpox in the whole country, and that was phenomenally rewarding. I can remember being out under the desert skies with a team of African male health workers, and we looked up at the stars. That was about the time, by the way, when we first went to the moon, the late '60s; '69 was the first moon landing. And I remember saying, "Look at those stars and look at the moon." The American space program was going up there. And here we are, and we're going to do something just as important. We're going to wipe a disease off the face of the earth. And we're not alone, you know; like that big sky, those stars are not alone; we're not alone. We are in each of 20 West African countries doing the same thing, and if we all do our job, we'll see it removed from Africa as a disease. That was tremendously rewarding to be able to say that to those people, to believe it, and then to leave when it was all done. Chillag : Has that affected the choices you've made afterwards, your career and your personal life? Masso: Well, certainly. I think what it's done to me as a person was to realize that there's no hardship you cannot endure. There's no obstacle that you can't surmount. There could be nothing tougher. You can be successful at something if you put your mind to it, if you work hard at it, and if you've got the tools to do it. CDC gave us tremendous tools to work with. And I don't mean just physical tools. We had the backing and support that were required to do it. And like the space program or like any other major achievement in history, we were able to get it done, and that leaves you with the sense that you can do almost anything if you have the right approach and the right support. Chillag : I didn't ask anyone else this, but I'm just interested. Did you have any issues coming back to the United States in terms of reintegrating here? Masso: When I came back, I went to Syracuse, New York, where there was 157 inches of snow that first winter. And, of course, when you leave a country which is 120°F in the shade, not unusual in the Sahara, and you come to New York, you get the climate difference. But the bigger difference wasn't that. It was that after 3-1/2 years of living like this in Africa, getting back into modern society doesn't seem real. The United States was now not real. Africa was real. Speaking French and speaking dialects were real. The superficiality of normal American suburban life, which is what we came back to, seemed like a movie, and Africa, then, was the real place, where at first it had seemed just the opposite. So the biggest cultural change was readjusting, which, of course, we were able to do after 6 months or a year or so. Chillag : Do you think there's anything else that it's important for people to know about the endeavor? Masso: I think that the most important thing for people to know is that it's unusual for the USAID [US Agency for International Development] program, or for any type of American foreign aid, to be looked at as being very successful. But I think CDC leadership in Atlanta and the people they were recruiting were uniquely able to demonstrate to the world that you could say we have a goal of eradicating a disease, and spend a modest amount of money doing it, and be tremendously successful in accomplishing it. I think that's a once-in-a-lifetime activity. The legacy is certainly something that we should all be proud of. People who listen to these tapes or people who see what's been done should realize that it was accomplished by normal people under abnormal conditions, but with exceptional leadership and dedication on the part of everyone. Chillag : Well, thank you very much. Masso: Thank you very much, Kata. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310130241&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158r7 emory:158r7 Subject The topic of the resource CDC Smallpox Eradication USAID WHO Operations Officer Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 175409808 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chillag, Kata (Interviewer); CDC; Anthropologist Masso, Tony (Interviewee); CDC; Operations Officer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Centers for Disease Control Title A name given to the resource MASSO, TONY Description An account of the resource Tony Masso, Operations Officer was assigned to Niger. Tony relates his impressions of Niger, working in the field and with Ministry of Health officials, cultural differences, and the greatest challenges and rewards of his time spent in Niger. Tony notes, "People who listen to these tapes or people who see what's been done should realize that it was accomplished by normal people under abnormal conditions, but with exceptional leadership and dedication on the part of everyone." Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/c0e9e0e50be5cbaed70d73c2e712fcda.jpg 2b5d3c2fab535c5de4db7a737df904af https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/6c8301345e9e95c987ef3effc9d5eec3.pdf 60556767adac34a43a4ac18eb01fa7f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Dr. Donald Moore on July 14, 2006, at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, about his experience and involvement with the West African Smallpox Eradication Project. The interview is being conducted as a part of a reunion marking the 40th anniversary of the launch of the program. The interviewer's name is Diane Drew. Drew: Welcome to Atlanta, and I hope you have a good visit. Could you start by telling me where you're from, your background and education, and anything that strikes you? Moore: Okay. I was born in El Centro, California. I came to San Diego in 1942, was raised there, on the beach actually, in Pacific Beach. I did a lot of surfing, spear fishing, swimming, and water sports. I went to Mission Bay High School and attended the University of California at Berkeley, graduating in zoology. I was briefly employed by the State of California Department of Fish and Game as a research biologist and then was accepted to medical school. I completed medical school at L.A. County, at USC Medical School, and then did my internship at San Diego County, UCSD Hospital. After I completed an internship, I entered the US Public Health Service as an EIS [Epidemic Intelligence Service] Officer, but not exactly, because I was entering the smallpox and measles program. I was married then and had 2 children. We moved to Atlanta and lived in North Decatur while I was training for this position. I was advised that I would need to speak French on entering the country, and so as soon as I found out that I was likely to go to a francophone country, I started learning French, even before I had finished my internship. Drew: Could we back up for just a second, because I'm interested in how you happened to decide to go into medicine? Was there anything that particularly influenced that choice? Moore: I had been interested in clinical work early on. Sort of in the back of my mind, I was interested in medicine and surgery. Drew: It sounds like you must have found out about this program while you were an intern, if you had started to learn French. Moore: Yes. While I was at the University of California, in Berkeley, I was accepted into the dental program at UC-San Francisco and into the veterinary program at UC-Davis, and I just kept thinking that I may as well become a doctor, so I just proceeded along that path. I had an opportunity to take over a family business in electronics or stay in research biology with the Department of Fish and Game. The Department of Fish and Wildlife, the federal government, also actually offered me a job. But I decided the best thing to do would be to go to medical school, so that's what I did. Drew: So you started picking up French and then came to Atlanta at some point with a family already. Your wife and a couple of kids? Moore: Yes. I wouldn't say that I was particularly facile at learning languages, but I did know Spanish from working at L.A. County. One had to speak Spanish. So French was not that difficult to learn. As I said, we lived in North Decatur, in what seemed to be rehabilitated military housing of some sort. The training period started in July 1966. It was supposed to be 3 months long in immersion French and a lot of epidemiology and infectious disease background training. Living in North Decatur was fun. The kids picked up southern accents. Drew: How old were they then? Like little toddlers? Moore: Toddlers, yes. I guess one was 5, and one was 2. They enjoyed running around with the other kids in this project we lived in. The kids would run as a herd from house to house, so it was a wonderful place for children. We always felt safe because it was an enclosed project. And it was nice to come to Georgia and get a feel for a different area of the United States. I'd always been a Southern California sort of beach boy before, and I guess returned to it. We were scheduled to go over to Niger in the fall, around October. However, the bilateral agreements had not been signed, so we were delayed another 3 months. We arrived in December in Niger. It was very hot. When we first came, it was a strange place to adapt to, but we had read books on Africa, books on Niger, so we knew what to expect. Drew: And your wife and children went? Moore: My wife and children. My wife was totally prepared to do it, and she loved Africa too, and took good care of myself and the children. I remember that we had to wash all of our vegetables in iodinated water. We took Aralin twice a week to prevent malaria. Interestingly enough, I had been told a scare story that the female secretary for the embassy had been shipped home in a lead casket only about 10 days before because she refused to take her cloraquin. We did not want to make that mistake. Drew: That's interesting. I do remember hearing that a person wouldn't take her cloraquin, but I also heard about somebody who wound up with hepatitis. I guess there were really a lot of health risks. Moore: Oh, there were many diseases that one could contract there, a lot of them parasitic diseases. We were always concerned about that. Schistosomiasis could be contracted in the Niger River; malaria was everywhere; onchocerciasis was around, schistosomiasis was just recently controlled but still around. So there were many health dangers over there. Drew: That must have been particularly challenging with children in terms of keeping them healthy and safe. Moore: It was. But they seemed to do very well. They adapted to the French schools nicely. It was a little different because my son was used to a little more freedom. The French were very disciplined and kind of rigid in teaching. One time I recall that my son was doing something, probably misbehaving, and the teacher slapped him, and we were up in arms. Then we had to just think back and consider where we were and what the cultural aspects of being in that situation were. We complained, but we did not make a big deal out of it. One always had to be careful of cultural interactions that could result in adverse consequences. We lived in a very nice home there, as the homes go. It was on about an acre and had a fence around it and had a nice patio and deck, where we held many parties, inviting people from the embassy and the Peace Corps. The program itself got under way quite nicely, I thought. We were shipped 7 trucks, which arrived in the port, Cotonou at Dahomey, and we went down there and picked these trucks up with drivers. Drew: Were these the infamous Dodge trucks? Moore: Dodge trucks, yes, extended-cab trucks. Tony Masso [Anthony R. Masso], a very competent individual and a wonderfully gregarious and nice person, was my Operation Officer. He and I went down to this port to drive these trucks back up with other drivers. Dahomey was a very interesting place. I had read a little bit about it. But at the time, we were quite young and just over from the United States. It was a little shocking, driving up along the road, to see bare-breasted women. I think that Tony, who was younger than I, and not clinically used to seeing nude females, was pretty impressed with these beautiful women. And the roads were red clay, which got all over the trucks. Some goats ran across the road, and, unfortunately, we hit 1 or 2. But we heeded advice not to stop because in the outer villages you could be attacked if that happened. You couldn't explain why you had hit the goat. So we didn't stop. But later, the villagers were compensated for those goats, I believe, by our embassy. Drew: And this was at the very beginning? Moore: It wasn't at the very beginning because we moved into an office at the building facility called the Service des Grandes Endemies (SGE), which was also called the Trypano [phonetic]. The government of Niger furnished us with a nice office there. Niger was a French colony before it was granted independence, but the French still were involved in the infrastructure of Niger. And one of those places was the health service. Their director was French, Dr. Shamrun [phonetic]; he was very nice, very cooperative, and very intelligent. I understand that in some areas, the Medical Officers had difficulty with the French counterparts because they looked at them as competitive, but we did not at all. Dr. Shamrun [phonetic] cooperated fully, and the Minister of Health did everything he could to help us. So it wasn't difficult to organize the vaccinating teams, 7 of them. We also got a big map of Niger and all the erandisements [sp.] that we had to vaccinate. Drew: Was that like a French overlay on the local system? Because I associate that terminology with Paris. Moore: Yes. The country is organized along the French lines of geography and names. I can't quite remember the name they used for the larger sections. But, in any case, we formulated a plan of vaccination and trained the teams with a vaccinating gun, and it seemed to work out quite well. We had leaders in the teams who were quite good, and they were well motivated. And for our program, it worked well. In an organized fashion, we were able to vaccinate the entire country. Drew: Was your program coupled with measles control as well? Moore: Yes. This brings another point. One of the difficulties we had was that the measles vaccine needed to be refrigerated. We really didn't have any method to do that. We had ice chests, which we could periodically keep the measles vaccine in. And, of course, in Dahomey, that was no problem because we could have the vaccine refrigerated. But when we went out in the field, we had to keep the measles vaccine cool, which was somewhat difficult. But I do remember an incident when we traveled to Agadez. And this is always with me. It was a sad occurrence. We were vaccinating all over the country. My Operations Officer, myself, and a vaccination team went up to Agadez because we'd heard that they were having a measles epidemic there, and, sure enough, they were. But when we arrived, we asked, "Where is the chef de village?" and we were told, "Well, he's over there." And we went over there, and "over there" happened to be a cemetery for the children who had died from measles. There were, as I recall, about 30 or 40 graves, maybe more, and the people were sitting around them mourning. And, of course, we came and said, "We're the measles-smallpox vaccination team," and they said, "Well, doctor, I wish you could have been here about a month earlier." Drew: Wow! Moore: We felt badly because we had moved as quickly as we could and did everything. Of course, we vaccinated everybody for smallpox and measles. But it was sort of like closing the barn door after the horse escaped. I never forgot that. So from that time on, we tried to be as expeditious as we could getting the vaccine out to the rural parts of the country, which was difficult. Drew: I'm sure a part of that too, must have been how you would get information from rural areas about measles occurrence. Moore: Yes. We got this information usually by telephone or telegraph. A lot of peculiar things happened. Tony Masso was with me on a trip to Zinder, and then, from Zinder to N'guigmi, which was called au fin du monde, the end of the earth. It was near Lake Chad. And it was really primitive. But it was interesting. We had to fly out there in a small plane flown by the French. When we took off, the door fell off of the aircraft. And we're sitting there with open air right beside us, and they said, "No problem. We'll land and put it back on." So they landed the plane, put the door back on, and we got back in. But I noticed that my Operation Officer turned white. And I said, "It'll be okay. These guys, they know what they're doing." So then we took off, and we're flying near Lake Chad, and they kept changing course. I asked them, "Do you know where we are?" and they said, "Well, we're a little bit lost right now." And so we were lost over the Sahara Desert. But, finally, they did find the airfield and landed. Drew: And Tony was already pretty pale. He probably got paler after that. Moore: He didn't like that flight at all. I don't know whether he recalls it or not. On the return flight the French pilot permitted his student to land the plane-which was a very rough landing and the plane almost skidded off the runway. I quietly asked the French pilot how many landings his student had made; he replied, "That was the first one". But, anyway, then we went out with the teams. They had already proceeded to that area by road. Drew: This was the au fin du monde. Moore: Yes. This was N'guigmi, near Lake Chad. We were vaccinating up there and just observing how teams were working. And I remember a harmaton came up there and blew our tent down. We were camping out. Drew: What came up? . Moore: A harmaton. Drew: Is that a weather phenomenon? Moore: It's a big wind that comes in Africa. It's like a hurricane on the sand, a huge wind that comes up with a big sandstorm. It's a sandstorm, basically. And it comes up suddenly. You can see it coming for miles away because it forms a huge wall of sand in the air. Drew: And it's moving toward you? Moore: And it's moving towards you. Drew: So you know to make preparations. Moore: That's why camels have these great eyes and eyelashes, which can close and keep the sand out. So we had that to deal with this sandstorm. I remember we were making some rice, in the same camp area, and a plague of small grasshoppers or small locusts came, just clouds of them came. There was no way to keep them out of the tent or an open- air area. We lifted the lid on the rice to see if it was done, and several of these grasshoppers flew in. And that boiled rice was the only thing we had to eat. So either Tony or I said, "Well, open the lid and quickly get the grasshoppers out." But when we opened the lid, before we could get the grasshoppers out, more flew in. So then we decided, well, we'll just eat the grasshoppers. And so that's what we did. Drew: It would be a little like having water chestnuts in your rice. Moore: One time I went out to look at teams, somewhere east of Niamey. It may have been around Zambia. I traveled out there and I visited these Peace Corpsmen, and they invited me to stay in their house, and so I did. They had an outhouse. So I went to use it. It was all dark inside the outhouse because it was all enclosed, no light really. I sat down, and I heard some strange scratching on the wood planks around there. I was wondering what it was. Drew: Is this daylight? Moore: It's daylight, but the outhouse is dark. So I finished and I opened the door, and the light came in then, and I started looking around, and there were these big scorpions everywhere-on the corners, underneath where the planks were, where the toilets were. They didn't seem to bother the people using the outhouse. They just were scary. It upset me. I said, "If one of those bites you on the rear end, or stings you, it can be pretty painful." It also seemed a little bit unaccommodating, unfriendly, to the people trying to use the outhouse. So I said to the woman from the Peace Corps, "Why don't you take some spray, Raid, and spray that outhouse out there and get rid of those scorpions?" and she said, "Well, we did that, and the scorpions didn't die, they just came into our house here, so we don't do that anymore." But you live and you learn. I remember a lot of cultural things too. Usually the village chef invited us to eat. Once they were passing around this bowl of camel's milk and millet mixed together. It was a common bowl. So we were sitting there, and the bowl came around. The entire rim of the bowl was covered with flies. I was a little concerned because it was a pretty communal thing; we were drinking with about 10 Africans at a time. To drink it, you had to clear a space to put your mouth and clear out the flies to drink the camel's milk, but you couldn't refuse. So, of course, I drank it. Things like that went on-you had to make accommodations to the culture. Drew: And hope for the best. Moore: And hope for the best. Drew: How long were you in Niger? Moore: I was there 18 months. I was an active commissioned officer for 2 years, but I was there for 18 months in Niger. But in that 18 months' time, we did get the initial vaccination done. When I left, another Medical Officer came; I think Dr. Logan Root was his name. Tony Masso, my Operations Officer, a really excellent facilitator, stayed there another year or maybe a year and a half. I was very happy with the program. We had trouble sometimes with the trucks. Initially, there was a problem because our trucks were supposed to be taken care of by the Vinel Corporation, a contract corporation that took care of government vehicles running overseas. However, in Niger, we found that these people just were not the kind of people we wanted to work with because they didn't take care of the trucks and they used our parts for other vehicles. And so Tony said, "This isn't working." And he said, "I would opt to take our trucks back, keep them here in the Service des Grandes Endemies yard, and take care of them ourselves. We can take our parts back and put them in a garage." And I said, "Well, go ahead and do it." We went to the Ambassador and said, "We just have to have control over our equipment." And so he said, "Yes, go ahead," and we did. I think that, if we had not done that, the program would have had a lot more trouble. Drew: It sounds like a lot of other programs, either officially or by default, may have taken care of their own vehicles, too, because I keep hearing a common thread among a lot of folks in the program that they learned how to do maintenance. Moore: Well, some were blessed with excellent mechanics. The Operations Officer in Mali was Jay Friedman [Jay S. Friedman], who was a very competent mechanic before he came into the program. Drew: Yes, I interviewed Jay yesterday, and he was telling me that he can't deal with modern cars, but he knows old-fashioned cars, and I guess he got so he really knew how to deal with the trucks. Moore: So I think that was a real plus in the program. And we were actually blessed with having mechanics among the drivers. You know, they were very good mechanics and could take care of the trucks just fine if they had access to the parts, which we obtained. So that helped the program a lot. I remember coming back from Agadez-Tony was driving-and this horse ran in front of us. It was sundown, dusk. Tony swerved to miss the horse. I still remember the horse; it was big and brown. The truck rolled completely over, and the top of the truck got smashed and the windshield broke completely out. And we were upside-down in the truck. Drew: This was before seatbelts and everything, wasn't it? Moore: You know, I believe it was. I don't think we had seatbelts, no, because I actually sprained my neck a little bit. Actually, we had been told previously that if an animal runs across in front of you, don't swerve off the roads because there are no shoulders in Africa, and you will hit sand and you can roll a truck. But it just happened so suddenly. And, of course, he was trying to not strike this horse. Drew: Well, and I'm sure hitting a horse is a little more formidable than hitting, say, a chicken or a pig or something. Moore: So maybe that was justified, swerving at that time. But I knew one thing. I knew that if we didn't get the truck turned back over quickly, the oil would drain out, and then we wouldn't be able to drive the truck, and if driven, the engine would be ruined. So we quickly assembled the villagers there, who were happy to turn the truck back upright for us, and we drove back to Niamey without a windshield. At that time, it was cold there. It was a pretty cool trip back, but we did make it. That was the only serious accident that we had there. Lots of times we would have to send money or get money sent because the teams would be out of gas. But all in all, it was really a good time. It was fun working there because we connected, we had social interactions, with the Nigerians, the French. And there were people of other nationalities traveling through all the time, Europeans. Niamey was sort of a hub in Africa for people who were traveling from the southern part of Africa up to North Africa and on to Europe. I met many people in the Peace Corps. The Peace Corps doctor stationed there was interested in psychology-psychiatry; he was a psychiatrist, basically. And I was more of a clinician. So I took care of lot of Peace Corpsmen clinically there. Once I had to make a decision about whether this woman in the Peace Corps had appendicitis or not, and decide whether to evacuate her from the country, which would have cost about $20,000. Finally I decided she didn't, and we didn't evacuate her, and she survived. But it was pretty primitive. On the other hand, there were parties. There wasn't any television, so people had each other. So, for entertainment, they had many parties. Sometimes there'd only be a sack of peanuts and some beer. Sometimes the parties were fancier. It was relatively inexpensive to give a party there. The food wasn't that expensive, and, of course, there was plenty of inexpensive help. And the Peace Corpsmen, coming out of the bush, were always happy to come to a party and do some dancing and meet other Peace Corpsmen. Drew: Were they living in more austere circumstances? Moore: They were living in very austere circumstances. They had to because they had to identify with the people very closely in order to do their work. But it was a time of heavy idealism. They were really motivated, idealistic young people, and the Nigerians loved them. The programs were fantastic there. They had well-digging programs and all these different things that they were doing. And it was a time, of course, of Bobby Kennedy; it was John Kennedy's program, and so these were all idealistic, liberal kids, and we loved working with them too. The Nigerians that we worked with were wonderful people, too. Many of the team leaders, although not educated, were highly intelligent so it was easy to teach them these different methods of vaccination and organization of supplies and equipment and recording of data. They did pretty much everything we asked them, but sometimes it was a little cruder than we wanted. Some of the data that we collected were not exactly as accurate as we wanted. But all in all, I think that they did a wonderful job. Drew: My sense is, too, that a really key part of a person's working in that kind of program would be knowing how to compromise and when to compromise. You had to know where you had to maintain some standards and where you could be more adaptive. Moore: That's true. We had to work with the government officials pretty closely, especially the village chiefs. The chef de village is kind of like a mayor here. And I learned early on that if you were going to make a trip to their village, the chiefs needed to be notified in advance because part of the respect of the people and their role as chief was to make a visible welcoming of any important visitors. They needed to be notified so they could prepare a welcome that was appropriate for their office. Drew: So, if you were to show up without them knowing ahead of time, it would almost be viewed as an insult or disrespect. Moore: That would be viewed as gauche. And if it wasn't done, they were very nice, of course, and they wouldn't say anything. But this is something that one always had to be cognizant of, notifying them so they could make the appropriate and respectful preparations for visiting dignitaries or persons that were official. So we tried to do that. As I recall, we had the only active cases of smallpox in West Africa at that time, except in northern Nigeria, where they had a few. But ours was a major place that smallpox was still extant in Africa. So we felt that we could play an important role in eradicating smallpox in that we were vaccinating in a place where it was still active. And I've always felt good about that. Drew: Did you come back to Atlanta afterwards? Moore: I came back through Atlanta briefly. Drew: Did you do any additional tours in Africa? Moore: No. I did 2 additional tours with the Ready Reserve of the Public Health Service. One tour was for 2 weeks in Fort Indian Gap, taking care of Cuban or Haitian political refugees fleeing Papa Doc Duvalier. And I did another 2-week tour in the Yakima Valley, Washington, taking care of farm workers. But I love the Public Health Service. I have great respect for the organization. I very nearly chucked my plans to go into a surgical subspecialty and almost decided to stay in the Public Health Service, to go back and get a Ph.D. in epidemiology, and work in that area for the Public Health Service. It would have been a very interesting and viable alternative. So I have great fondness for the Public Health Service. Through the years, I've followed what they do, read about CDC in the paper or in articles, and I still go back to them for information on infectious diseases and different problems. Drew: So when you finished your tour in Niger, you came back to CDC or . . . Moore: I came back and started a residency. Drew: Here in Atlanta? Moore: At Los Angeles General Hospital. Drew: General surgery? Moore: I did the general surgery year of the neurosurgery program and started the second year, but then I decided to change to obstetrics and gynecology. In fact, when I came back, I was accepted in the program of ob-gyn at the University of Washington and neurosurgery at USC. But I started the neurosurgery program at USC and then changed to obstetrics and gynecology just because I liked it better. Drew: Neurosurgery can be pretty grim. As a nurse, I have worked for neurosurgeons; it's a different field. Moore: Well, you know, it's technical, and you have to be happy with partial results. But at L.A. County, I had done quite a bit of OB as a student, and I just liked the action and the idea of taking care of 2 persons. It's always exciting and vital. You're dealing more in the young end of life. So it was something that attracted me. But I could have done either neurosurg or general surg as well, and, alternatively, I always liked epidemiology too. At the time I made the decision, I wanted to do more clinical training. I'd always imagined myself as a clinician when I was a doctor, and so I did do that. But, as I say, retrospectively, I don't know whether it may have been better to stay with the Public Health Service and go into epidemiology. I think I could have been happy, but I may have always regretted not doing the clinical work. Drew: Don't you think there are always those kinds of junctures in life where you think, well, what if I had done this instead of that? Moore: They're difficult decisions to make, true. I'm training residents now at the Navy Hospital, in ob-gyn. We have rotating through our service some internal medicine residents from private hospitals who just want to get some experience in gyn. And if they talk to me about their careers or they're undecided about what to do, I never fail to mention the Public Health Service and epidemiology as a career, and how it isn't what you might think it is, that the science of epidemiology can be applied to so many different problems. I just try to give people who are coming through our service an idea that there's more to medicine than just being a clinician. Dave Sencer [David J. Sencer] asked us to list 3 things that we got out of the program in West Africa. I don't know about 3 things, but I can tell you one thing that I got for sure, and that is that one man, or a team of a couple of men, with the backing of a strong government, like the United States, with the Public Health Service behind them, can make a fantastic impact on a large population of people. A country can make a major world health impact. And that's something that you can't really do as a clinician working one-on-one. You can, but you do it singly, and you have to have lots of clinicians doing similar things, if you're trying to make an impact. It isn't quite the same as if you're organizing a broad program to affect world health. So I think that if somebody wants the satisfaction of doing something that will really impact people's well-being, there could be few better choices than working in epidemiology and the public health sector. Drew: Not too many careers, either, where people can really truly say that they have that firsthand experience of having a positive impact on a large number of people in terms of things like longevity and quality of life. Moore: There aren't. And this Public Health Service facility has made a great impact on the well-being of people throughout the world. I think, overall, if you look at the 2 areas of clinical medicine and public health service, it's really public health service that makes the maximal positive change, for the most people. It drifts down. You know, their recommendations and their advice on what should be done to improve health do come down to the clinician, who does it on a more limited basis. But the initiative comes really from broad programs, at least in terms of a major improvement in people's life. Drew: We're kind of at a point where we probably should think about wrapping up, so I want to be sure and give you a chance, if there's other things you'd like to talk about... Moore: Well, I was trying to think of any little incidents there. I know my daughter- Drew: Are your children French speakers? Did they pick up French? Moore: My son speaks some French. My daughter was too young. My son also speaks Indonesian, Dutch, and some Spanish. But he works a lot overseas now. Talking about getting involved with a culture, I can remember my daughter, when she was just 2 or 3 years old, going out to where the guardians sat in the morning. They would have this really sweet tea. They offered her a cup of tea, and so she copied them, sitting cross-legged right down on their rug on the sand, drinking this tea that they were giving her. And I thought, how neat that she could have that experience. There were a lot of cultural interactions like that that I really enjoyed. Drew: Those things enrich a person's life so much. Moore: They do. It was really an enriching program in terms of my life and, looking back, really an important part of my life. Drew: Well, I really appreciate everything you've had to say. Is there anything you want to add? Moore: Only that I really appreciate what everyone in this smallpox program has done to preserve the memories of it, the archives and all the things done by the people working with CDC to be sure that the program is remembered, because I think that's important. Drew: Well, it's a pretty unique program and really had a pretty amazing effect, I think, on a global level. Moore: I think so. Drew: Thank you. Thanks for your work and thanks for the interview. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310130821&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource text interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158sc emory:158sc Subject The topic of the resource CDC Smallpox Eradication Program USAID WHO Epidemiologist Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 578415600 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Drew, Diane (Interviewer); CDC; Nurse Moore, Donald (Interviewee); CDC; Epidemiologist Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Centers for Disease Control Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Title A name given to the resource MOORE, DON Description An account of the resource Dr. Donald Moore, was an epidemiologist stationed in Niger. Don speaks about moving to Niger with his wife and 2 small children, the French colonial legacy of the health infrastructure, the challenging logistics of delivering vaccinations, working with the Dodge trucks and with local customs, and muses about a hypothetical alternate career with the Public Health Service and further studies in Epidemiology. Don went on to complete his residency in obstetrics and continues to practice as a clinician. Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/a9f3467b7db2391364bee10ac5687a6d.jpg 12d6c00d1ea77ebb7d729b86916fc2ed https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/fe408524bbac2714bd3af07fabbfb22d.pdf e2dc6b2f07dfdc5accb0f12094f47f38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Leo Morris about his activities in the West Africa Smallpox Eradication Program. His wife, Jane Morris, is also present. The interview is being conducted at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, on July 14, 2006. This is during the 40th anniversary celebration of the launching of the Smallpox Eradication Program. The interviewer is Kata Chillag. Chillag: How did you come to choose public health as a career? Morris: It was a bit serendipitous. My background is statistics, and I was studying statistics at the University of Florida. Usually every summer, I went home to Miami to work, usually in the hotels, to get money to go back to school the next fall. But during my junior and senior year, I thought I'd better get some experience. The Public Health Service had a traineeship program for statisticians, and 1 other person and I were selected from the University of Florida. Our assignments were just random. He got assigned to the Department of Agriculture, which turned out to be pretty boring, he tells me; and I got assigned to the Tuberculosis Program, Public Health Service, before it was transferred to CDC. After that summer, they asked if I'd consider coming back after graduation. And I might add, in those days-'59, late '50s- a statistician, even one with just a bachelor's degree, was in great demand. There just weren't many around. And I said, "Well, you know, I'd like to stay closer to Florida," and they told me about CDC. The Serfling-Sherman Polio Immunization Surveys were being conducted then, so CDC was looking for statisticians. So they recommended me to CDC, and there I was. Chillag: And so, how did you get tracked into smallpox eradication? Morris: I started out in the Polio Surveillance Unit, when we had cases of polio in the United States. I worked in that unit for 3 years in the EIS [Epidemic Intelligence Service]. Then Dr. Langmuir [Alexander Langmuir] supported me for employee development, and I left and got my Ph.D. at Michigan, where our first child was born. (The first was born in Michigan where I got an MPH in biostatistics in biostatistics, the 2nd in Atlanta, and the 3rd in Brazil,.) Then I worked with D. A. Henderson [Donald A. Henderson], mostly on viral diseases in the Surveillance Section. The Investigations Unit was devoted to bacterial diseases back in those days, with Phil Brachman. I also worked a lot in reviewing material for the MMWR [Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report]. That was '63. I worked on a big St. Louis encephalitis outbreak that year in Houston, Texas. In '65, I worked with Larry Altman. He became the first person to go to West Africa in the measles program in West Africa on a TDY [tour of duty]. We were getting involved in some smallpox work, and I was chosen to be part of it. We had a 5-person team in '65, including Don Millar [J. Donald Millar], who later became head of the Smallpox Unit at CDC, to evaluate the vaccine produced in Brazil. Basically, we were comparing the Wyeth freeze-dried vaccine with the freeze-dried vaccine produced in Brazil. We worked in the Amazon territory of Amapa, which is now a state. We were gone about 5 weeks. When we left here, it was winter. In fact, we had a snow storm, and that day we didn't know whether we were going to get to the airport or not. And there, of course, it was summertime and 100° in Rio de Janeiro before we went up to the Amazon. That was my first trip to Brazil. I did some polio work in Chile and Puerto Rico in 1960 and 1961. I really sort of fell in love with the culture in Brazil, and the people and so forth. That was '65. Then '66 was the start of the smallpox program, so I stood up with D. A. Henderson and others in the original group that started the Smallpox Eradication Program. I was in charge of the statistical end and evaluation. In '66, we trained the first group that went to West and Central Africa. I had interviewed many of the nonphysicians who had applied. Then the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) came to CDC. At that time, Brazil was the only country with endemic smallpox in the Americas. There were some overflow cases into neighboring countries. It was variola minor, not variola major, so it didn't get the publicity of some areas. But PAHO, which is part of WHO [World Health Organization], said they were going to put advisors into Brazil. They had a newly created Smallpox Eradication Program, and they needed a statistician, an evaluation person. They had 3 physicians, 1 from Paraguay, 1 from Peru, who was the team leader, and 1 from Colombia. So I was asked if I might want to go to Brazil. I said, "Where do I sign up?" I was very eager for that. In February of '67, we left for Brazil. And that's how I got to Brazil. I was there 3 years as advisor to the Smallpox Eradication Program after I had participated in sending the first trained group over to West Africa. Chillag: And, Mrs., Morris, how did you feel about that? Mrs. Morris: I loved it. When Leo asked me, "What do you think about going to Brazil?" I said, "When?" Morris: We both learned how to samba. Chillag: Yeah, there you go. So, you mentioned that before the actual smallpox eradication, you did the trial between the 2 vaccines, correct? Morris: In '65. Chillag: In '65. And then, after that, was there a typical day for you as a statistician working on this in Brazil? Morris: Well, we had several primary objectives. I spoke Spanish reasonably well, but I took some Portuguese courses so I could forget my Spanish because it's hard to combine the 2 languages. The director of the program in Brazil was a man named Silva. He had recently retired from being the head of malaria control in all of the Americas at PAHO in Washington and returned back to Brazil. Because of his vast experience, they talked him into taking over this new Smallpox Eradication Program. He was the only one in the office who spoke English. Now if you went up to the Ministry of Health in Brazil, a good percentage of the people spoke English. But he was the only one who spoke it in this office back then in 1967. So on my first day there, we conversed in English, about the surveillance we needed, reporting, and so forth, and then he said to me, "This is the last day I'm going to speak to you in English," and he never spoke to me in English again. So in that environment, it was easy to really improve my Portuguese. We had 3 primary objectives. First was to develop a reporting system, which they didn't have. There were 22 states at that time, and I think only 6 or 7 were reporting cases of smallpox . Sao Paulo, the biggest state, with the most cases, never reported. Starting a surveillance report based on the reporting was the 2nd goal. And the 3rd was to start thinking about evaluation. I had worked on the system that they were going to use in West Africa for evaluating the vaccination program. We wanted to extend it to Brazil, although in Brazil we could be a little more sophisticated because they had better census data to use as a sampling frame. Chillag: When you talk about evaluation of vaccination, what all does that entail? Morris: Two primary things. One would be a sample of villages or towns, sometimes big cities in Brazil, to look at 2 things: 1) asking everybody in the sample households if they had been vaccinated in the campaign; and 2) checking everybody </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe width="100%" height="166" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310131763%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-OergU&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-01-13 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158th emory:158th Subject The topic of the resource Smallpox Eradication USAID WHO CDC Surveillance Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 574078512 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chillag, Kata (Interviewer); CDC; Anthropologist Morris, Leo (Interviewee); CDC; Statistician/Surveillance Officer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Centers for Disease Control Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Centers for Disease Control Title A name given to the resource MORRIS, LEO AND JANE Description An account of the resource Leo Morris describes the smallpox program in Brazil and the eradication of the disease. Jane Morris relates some of the challenges of life abroad. Leo, was already employed with CDC, and helped interview and train the initial group that went to West Africa. He served as a statistician for the Smallpox Eradication Program in Brazil, which was the only endemic area for smallpox in the Americas. Leo helped develop a smallpox reporting system and surveillance, as well as an evaluation program for the smallpox vaccination campaign. After his time in Brazil, Leo continued his work with surveys and evaluation techniques in the area of reproductive health. Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/b07847907b2c8762b6d63c2a4536e899.JPG 91f148317e5d406c7b2ea2a8433f68df https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/1152aa1d46ef31f9bc016b68e3a2f616.pdf 1b2d762a6f4793cf6640a5fcd223fd75 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> fThis is an interview with David Newberry on July 13, 2006, at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, about his role in the project to eradicate smallpox in West Africa in the 1960s. The interviewer is Melissa McSwegin Diallo. Diallo: You started out working at CDC in venereal disease. Could you talk a little bit about how your education before that and your upbringing led into a career in health? Newberry: I have a Native American ancestry mixed with an upbringing by very humble parents who really prompted us to seek education. I was a high school dropout, joined the US Army, went to Korea assigned to the 3rd Infantry Division. After completing Basic Training, Ardyce Timmons and I were married January 29, 1953. I served 3 years in the army. Upon returning to Kansas, I tried various jobs but with little education and a GED Certificate, it was clear that there was no way I would be able to provide for my growing family. I went to the local university and applied for entrance armed with my GED. They tested me, and the Registrar reluctantly agreed to let me enter as a probationary student. I carried a double major (Pre-Med and Secondary Education) with a double minor (History and Chemistry) in my undergraduate work. With a growing family I needed to work full- time in a local 750-bed hospital laboratory, as a nonregistered medical technologist. We had 6 children, and that always made seeking higher education difficult. We suffered the death of a 6- month-old child, who was being watched by a babysitter who let a fan blow a plastic sheet over her face. I was accepted as a student at the Kirkwood Missouri Osteopathic School of Medicine. We did not have the necessary $600 needed to reserve my place in the class. I was employed by the Midwest Medical Research Foundation as a research assistant. We were working on mitochondria and some of the early, basic research on liver transplants. We were using dogs as study subjects for liver transplants. I assisted in surgical procedures, postoperative care of the animals, and enjoyed the work but I really missed the person-to-person contact of working in the hospital environment. So when CDC advertised for Public Health Advisors (PHAs) to serve as basic epidemiologists in identifying sources and spread of sexually transmitted venereal diseases, I was hooked. While serving in the military, one of my NCO assignments was to give lectures on venereal diseases. So I applied for the CDC job, and since I was a 15-point veteran, CDC really had to hire me. My application and personal status did not meet the usual CDC recruiting profile or employee pattern. Personnel (the organizational term used then) offered me and my family one assignment choice: New York City as a cooperative employee with CDC on a probationary basis assigned to the NYC VD [Venereal Diseases] Program. We had 5 kids, no money, had never been to a really big city, and were totally ignorant of CDC's work climate, and so we immediately took the assignment. My CDC clinic supervisor was a truly gifted professional who was committed to disease prevention and control. I was directly supervised by Joe Benkowski, who was the Senior Epidemiologist at Brooklyn's Fort Green Facility, which was located on Flatbush Avenue Extension. It was one of Brooklyn's Social Hygiene Clinics. The morbidity there was a huge volume of syphilis cases (all stages), gonorrhea, and other diseases spread by sexual contact. I probably interviewed about 2,000 homosexuals, serving as a Cooperative CDC assignee and later as the Senior Epidemiologist at Fort Green. During our 3 years in Brooklyn, we interviewed thousands of primary, secondary, and tertiary syphilis patients. I really enjoyed that assignment. It was a little tough on the family, but the kids really adjusted. They attended St. Joseph's Catholic school around the corner from our apartment on Underhill Avenue between Bergen and Dean Streets. We sort of integrated that poor Brooklyn neighborhood in reverse, which had transited from a turn of the century Italian neighbor to a mostly black one. CDC only paid a little over $4,000 a year then. The Newberry family could have actually taken in more income by going on city welfare for 5 kids in New York City and being eligible for NY Medicaid than working for CDC. But, anyhow, we had a lot of fun, a lot of laughs, met some great people, worked with some wonderful epidemiologists, and I learned a lot from those folks. There is a lot for a family to enjoy in New York City. We could walk to the Brooklyn Museum, Prospect Park, and take a train to the Hayden Planetarium in Manhattan. One night, about 3 years into the assignment, the liquor store just below our apartment was robbed and a gunfight broke out between the thieves and police while our children watched from the fire escape. It was time to move on. I applied for a job with the CDC Tuberculosis Control Program and was selected for an assignment in Memphis, Tennessee. So the Newberry family moved to Memphis, Shelby County, Tennessee. My CDC predecessor was the Acting Tuberculosis Director for Memphis and Shelby County. I became the Acting TB Division Director there, supervising some 35 county employees. Our clinical activities were provided by the West Tennessee Tuberculosis Hospital located across the street from the health department. Within 18 months, we were recruited by Billy Griggs [Billy G. Griggs] for the CDC/USAID [US Agency for International Development] Smallpox Eradication and Measles Control Program. So we prepared mentally and physically to move to Ghana in West Africa. Diallo: So what would you say motivated you to get into smallpox? Newberry: Oh, I think probably the idea of eradicating any disease really appealed to me, and from what I'd learned while studying epidemiology, this prospect was a huge turn-on with me. The CDC staff talked about it; "Hey, let's eradicate this smallpox disease. Let's get rid of it forever." That really resonated with me, and I thought. "Hey, we will go to any lengths to do that." Also, my culture, and my family's culture, has always been that you should make the world a better place because you're in it, and that you should do everything you can to help others. And, of course, I'm Catholic, too. The nuns beat service into in my head. The guilt for not doing a perfect job I was able to develop on my own! Diallo: Okay. So then you applied to the program, you got accepted. Newberry: Right. Diallo: And you got your assignment in Ghana. Correct? Newberry: Right. Billy Griggs recruited me, and again the Newberry family sort of broke the mold in terms of the usual kind of folks who went to Africa as CDC assignees. We had a huge family. And the guy that I was replacing, Jim Lewis [James O. Lewis], had no children. So he actually leased the former Japanese Ambassador's residence, with 6 bedrooms and bathrooms all over the place. The backyard had a little Japanese garden with a pool in the back, and it to us it was awesome. Accra was just starting the Lincoln Community School, which conducted classes through the eighth grade. CDC/USAID helped subsidize tuition so we able to pay for school for the kids. By the end of our CDC tour, I ended up being chairman of the school board. That was an adventure in itself. The complexity of eradicating smallpox was accomplished by the wonderful Medical Field Unit (MFU) of the Ministry of Health. Being chairman of the school board led me into experiences and lessons in politics, power struggles, and money that banded several strange coalition groups together to apply pressure on the school board chairman! Diallo: So, you had a family with 5 children, you knew you were going to ship them all off to Africa. How did you prepare, and how did the CDC training help you prepare? Newberry: Well, at CDC, we had an excellent orientation, but basically it was kind of a fear school. We were being prepared for all sorts of health and disease risks and adventures. I tried to not to freak all my family out. When you talk to your wife and children about Loa loa, a filoriasis of the eyes, and the timbu fly, which causes cutaneous infestation with furuncular lesions in sub-Saharan, it scares the pants off everyone! Later I did experience a cutaneous infestation, and it did freak me out a bit. But these were nothing compared to some of the horrendous diseases and illnesses that were out there. But then my work in a 750-bed hospital situation helped so I wasn't too intimidated by those kinds of health threats, and ignorance is bliss! Also I had served in Korea so I know what it's like being overseas. So I wasn't very intimidated myself, but for the family I was really fearful. Our children are the greatest-the kids looked upon it as an adventure. I mean, these kids are great. They're amazing. And my wife's an amazing lady. She never did like it over there, and she still doesn't treasure the experience, but she did it and did a really did a good job. As soon as we arrived in Ghana we took a field trip to meet the Medical Field Units of the MOH and all the field staff. There were 315 field staff, with names like Quadgo, Kwame, and Cockaleeka. By the way, Cockaleeka is the Twi word for cockroach. One of our field staff insisted that he was to be Cockaleeka because that way wherever we went, he would already be there. So that's what he wanted to call himself, a cockroach. During that first field trip I met all 315 people the first 2 weeks in Ghana. I couldn't even pronounce one name correctly. We went into this one village, and suddenly here is a red-haired American, and he says, "Hi, I'm Bob Carter. I'm working on an agriculture program," or some such program for USAID. We shook hands, and I didn't see him again for 2 years. Two years later, I saw him in downtown Accra, and I said, "Hey, Bob Carter, how are you doing?" He couldn't imagine how I could possibly remember his name but the secret was simple: after meeting 315 people with unpronounceable names, meeting Bob Carter will always be in my memory bank. Diallo: That was the easy one. Newberry: That was the easy one. Anyhow, in order to implement the Smallpox Eradication and Measles Control Program, we traveled a lot. I put in about 240,000 miles on our Dodge twin-cab pickup. All this travel was in Ghana; it was all in the country itself. I went to every major village, market, and cultural place of geographic importance. I took the children on some of the trips, and they amazed the Africans. They would touch the skin and hair of the children and ask questions like, "How can you tell the boys from the girls because none have pierced ears"? I had then, and will always carry, the highest respect for my African colleagues for what they do, where they do it and the hardships they experience doing it. We at CDC, World Health Organization (WHO), and others may put our arms out of joint patting ourselves on the back for the eradication of smallpox, but the real people, the real heroes, the real staff, the real soldiers who eradicated that smallpox as a disease were those who lived in the countries who did the nitty-gritty work. These folks got to the communities; they got to the households and administered the vaccine while conducting wonderful surveillance systems in place. And I have nothing but absolute respect and awe for what they did, and where they did it, and how they did it. Diallo: Could you talk a little bit more about that, about establishing working relationships with your African counterparts? Newberry: The Director of the program was Dr. Frank Grant-God bless his soul, he died not too long ago-and he was one of the most amazing men that you've ever met. His father was a minister, and Frank was a true gentleman, an excellent epidemiologist, and a wonderful, patient human being. Frank was educated partly in the U.K. and partly in Accra, Ghana. I can't say it well enough: he was just a wonderful human being and a highly intelligent person. He was a well-trained Medical Officer and one of the hardest working professional persons I've had the pleasure of knowing. I traveled to some of the most remote locations in Ghana. I was housed in old huts seldom used because professionals rarely actually went to these locations and worked. I never traveled to any desolate corner or stayed in any hut that didn't bear evidence that Dr. Frank Grant had been there sometime before me! I quit smoking cigarettes in his home, in 1971, because his wife, Mary Grant, who was also a physician, said to me, "Why do you smoke? Have you read the US Surgeon General's advisory on smoking?" "Yeah," I answered, "I read it back in '57, right after Luther Terry published it as part of his findings. I found it very convincing." Mary Grant said, "Well, why are you still smoking?" and I said, "You're right. I won't." So I quit. February 9, 1971, I smoked my last cigarette. I hasten to add that my children made sure that every piece of tobacco disappeared from the house. Later I did take up the pipe but gave it up when I overheard the children trying to justify Dad doing it because it was less of a health risk. Frank Grant was one of the fairest people that I have ever been blessed to work with, in part because of what has already been stated. In addition to those comments, I feel the need to add additional attributes he possessed. Frank Grant was honest to a fault and loved his family and his country. In return he had the love of his staff and his family and the people of Ghana. There was no question about his devotion to Ghana and the health of Ghana; it was incredible. You could not be around him and not be inspired and touched by him. And the intellectual process that he exercised was inclusive and resonated with individual "ownership." He loved the MFU staff, and even we expatriates; he always maintained our equality in a relationship. I didn't know more than him, and he didn't know more than me. I respected his authority and never questioned it. We learned together and walked a path together. And later, Mary became advisor to the head of state on health matters, Jerry Rollins. And so I continued to have a lot of input over the years because of that relationship with the Grant family and with those wonderful people. The Brits trained the MFU staff, which was an organization that the Brits put together because the infrastructure hadn't existed. The capacity to provide outreach health services was extremely limited. So the Brits brought this program for training in treatment and outreach infrastructure together to serve the rural people by training national medical auxiliaries in treatment and public health. They were sent out to the people in what they called MFU teams. These teams actually rotated out to every part of Ghana. Health Inspectors were also trained, and the MFU was charged with a simple task of mapping the entire country. The way they trained those folks was amazing. They had medical auxiliaries. Now Ghana has 2 medical schools, but then they were just setting up the one in Accra. And so they trained these medical auxiliaries; they had a 4-year program and a 2- year program. And the sophistication of the training and the clinical practice of a 4-year graduate of that paramedical school was awesome. So they were our team members. They were the ones who really went in the trenches to eradicate smallpox. We developed surveillance systems. My predecessor, Jim Lewis, and the Medical Officer were exceptionally good people. They were great to follow. Their talents and the legacy they left were real easy to pick up, and we just carried it to the next stage. And everywhere I went, the Medical Officers were good. There were some expatriates from India and other places that were probably a little more interested and focused on the money they were making, but I made lifelong friends with most of the African people who I worked with. I go back to Ghana, even now, and I still occasionally see a person or 2 who I know real well. Diallo: You mentioned a little bit about that British legacy they left behind as far as infrastructure and so on. Would you talk a little bit more about that? Newberry: Yes. The Brits trained medical and paramedical, and set up a system that was really quite comprehensive. You could probably criticize colonialism, but that aspect you could not because they provided and developed a service and accessibility to health services that didn't exist before they were there. They actually had the good conscience and did develop those systems and those structures. They built the hospitals, and they formed the labs. It was complementary to what the missionaries did. I mean, you'd find a Baptist hospital in one place and you'd find a Catholic hospital run by the white fathers in another place, and they were all coordinated with the government hospitals, the missionary hospitals, as well. So they worked together and shared resources occasionally when there was a need. Father Kelly, was one of the first White Father missionaries who first came to Ghana in 1918. They arrived when Ghana had only "Long Boat " off loading from ships as no harbors were built yet. These amazing priests pulled all of their possessions off a ship in Accra (then the Gold Coast). Then loaded them on "long Boats", and then landed on the beach at Labadi at the foot of Accra City. These missionaries then hired porters and carried all their belongings, up-country 500 miles, on their heads. Father Kelly found the poorest tribe living in/under the most wretched conditions imaginable in the northeast of Ghana. He made a whole new life for the people that he grew to love. Where does one get that kind of dedication? When I became acquainted with him after he had developed a written language for 'his' tribe and built any number of maternity hospitals. Father Kelly had a particular love for women and their childbirth sufferings. Whenever you went to see Father Kelly, you had to work basic construction with him as you talked. He wouldn't take a fridge for vaccine storage because he was afraid he'd be "tempted" to use it for himself. We were able to set up a mechanism whereby we could store vaccines and he couldn't be "tempted". So they set the structure up. And the British trained folks who were incredible. When you said, "We'll leave at 6:30 AM for village A, B, C, and D," at 6:30 they were there. Diallo: That's amazing. Newberry: And they knew they were going to stay all day. And no one was late. I mean, that's the legacy. They were very precise, very dependable, very comfortable to work with. I mean, they were so dedicated and committed. Diallo: Wow. That's good, that's really good. Can you talk a little bit about some of the problems of living in the villages and adapting to life in a new country? Newberry: Well, I'm left-handed, and you go up north and you can't hand anything to anybody left-handed. And you're not supposed to eat with your left hand, and so it's sort of like sitting on your hand and trying to work with your right hand. Understanding the culture and the taboos I think is really important. Of course, I was raised in sort of a primitive society as well, so I think I had an advantage over some of my colleagues. I learned over time what protocol really demanded. If I went to a village and it was very poor, hospitality has to be extended to you. But you know that if you ate, you're eating somebody else's food because somebody had to give up their food for you to eat. So I found out that no one could eat until I took 3 bites, and, of course, you ate with your hand. And I found out that if I took 5 bites total, then I didn't have to take any more food. My obligation is finished. So I take 3 bites, everybody can eat; I take 2 more, and I'm finished. So I think little practices like that you had to be tuned in to what was going on. You really had to look for these cultural nuances in order to be more effective. I think a lot of us in the West, we tend to look at Africans as primitive. Let me tell you, I sat in villages when a chief was presiding over a court. And it was the most remarkably precise, fair, and balanced proceeding I've ever witnessed. I could quote you several cases. I'm just telling you, believe it, it's a fact. And it was kind of a funny thing because there are mores attached to ordinary human conditions and problems that we don't even think about. For instance, we were in this village, and a chief was hearing an important case about someone violating fishing rights on a river. The water, food, and all the rest of this is very important, and owners' rights are very important. And so he was hearing witnesses. And then a madman, a Mahakachee, came in and approached the group. And no one paid attention to him until he crossed some invisible line-and I didn't know what it was-but when he crossed that line, everything stopped. And he came around, and he saw my skin and he touched it. I was used to that, so I didn't react at all. And then somebody had given him some food, so he was carrying that food because they couldn't let anybody starve. After all, this is a brother. He's not a social pariah just because he's mad. And so he wandered around and then, again, he crossed over this sort of invisible line, and the witness immediately started testifying and the whole proceeding picked up again. It was so remarkable to me. We tend to look down on folks who don't have the same culture and the same processes that we have, but it was absolutely remarkable, that experience. Diallo: How did your family like Africa? Newberry: Oh, the kids loved it. And I'd give them a task. I'd say, "Okay, the task is that I'm giving each of you 50 cents, and you have to buy your own food for the whole week." And everybody did it-everybody except my oldest son; he liked Coca-Cola or soft drinks too much, so he went over his limit because he bought soft drinks. Diallo: How old were they all then? Newberry: Well, the youngest, Phillip, was just getting ready for second grade. And then, the oldest was one third of the eighth-grade class. (We had 3 eighth-grade students at Lincoln Community High School then.) So our children ranged from first to eighth grade. And they loved it. They'd go to the field with me, and all the Africans loved it. I actually put my children to work when we'd go out to help mobilize a community. People would come to see the kids, and then we'd immunize the people when they came out, that sort of thing. And I actually put my oldest son in the field working with a team during summer vacation. Diallo: I bet they have great memories of that. Newberry: They did love Ghana. And then, we went back later for guinea worm eradication, and my youngest daughter sent her son with us so he could have that experience. So I took my grandson to Ghana later. Diallo: Wow, that's neat, that's really neat. How did participating in smallpox change your life and the course of your career? Newberry: I think it would be easier to phrase that question the other way, Melissa: how didn't it? Diallo: Okay. Newberry: It changed my life in every way that it could: professionally, personally, ethically, from a moral standpoint. I can't think of any part of my life that hasn't been touched by my initial African experience. And have I had some sad experiences? Yes. We experienced the death of people that we know and love both in our own family and outside. But the Africans, the people we lost in Africa, I think were real special, each in their own unique way. Their appreciation for life and death was just amazing. I once asked Frank Grant how Africans accept death. And he said, "Well, let me tell you. We have so many proverbs that cover everything that are our way of life, and our trust in God, is really much like that of the American Indian." And he told this story. "A man was in the forest one day, and he saw 2 snakes. One snake was consuming the other, and he took a stick and broke up the fight and stopped it. That night there was a knock on his hut, and he opened the door, and there's a man. He said, 'I am death, and I was being consumed today in this form of a snake that you saw. So, because you saved me, I will grant you any wish that you want.' The guy says, 'Well, I want to be warned before I'm going to die so I can live the way I want, but I can die the way I should.' So he went through life with no regard for other people. He was selfish and sought pleasure. And then one night, there's a knock on the door, and he opened it, and there's death, and he says, 'I've come to get you.' And the man says, 'Wait a minute. Our agreement was, because I'd saved your life, you were going to warn me.' And death said, 'I warned you with the death of your brothers, with the deaths of your mother and your father and your friends. Now I've come to get you.'" And that's such a poignant way to look at death, and every aspect of life itself. But I think the things that are more important to me were the hospitality and the acceptance that the Africans have. Some Westerners will say, "Well, basically they give you hospitality and greeting because they're going to get something back." That's not true; that's not true. They do it from the genuine openness of their heart. They'll give you their last bite of food. And is it because of protocol? No, it's not because of protocol. It's because that's the way they are. That is their standard. That is their upbringing.. And they taught me how little I know. The first African phrase I learned was to-ba-see-bro-nee, which means, "Take your time, white man." So they taught me there's a pace and a rhythm to life. They taught me what little I know, and the fact is that I need to know more. They taught me a sensitivity for culture and language. I did learn to speak Hausa subsequently in Nigeria. They taught me what family is all about. And I don't mean your immediate family, but global family. They taught me that when one person suffers, everyone accepts you can suffer. They taught me justice in terms of the courts and in terms of being tolerant about people; that you can't draw lines. Because somebody's bad doesn't mean that you ignore them. Some of the customs are so quaint, like if a husband and wife have a disagreement, they can hire an arbitrator. An arbitrator has a little stool, and they come to the house and they sit down on the stool, and while they're seated on that stool, they are arbitrators, they are marriage counselors, and they hear both sides of the disagreement. On sort of a macabre note, in one instance there was a couple who had the arbitrator in, and the wife became so angry at what the arbitrator said that she grabbed the stool and hit her and killed her with it. Diallo: Oh! Newberry: I mean, like I said, it's sort of a macabre thing. But the society and the culture are so rich in Africa that I think we Westerners have missed a lot of it even by being there, even by working with them, even by living with them, and in some instances even by learning the language. Because you can be bilingual, but you can't be bicultural. And certainly the richness of culture also changed my life. I also think road safety and common sense is a major factor. When I used to teach students, I'd say, "You're learning all these things about preserving your health and about avoiding disease organisms," and so on. "Will you get out of a car, will you stop a vehicle, if you're a passenger, and get out?" "Well, why?" "Well, if someone's driving unsafe or at a great speed, your life is in greater danger then than it is from these little organisms. Stop the vehicle and get the heck out." I know I'm rambling, but I'm just trying to look at your question in a holistic way. My oldest daughter married a second-generation missionary in Cameroon, and they went back and lived there, so their household language is Falani. They speak Falani at the household, and they're back here now. Diallo: Oh, and they still speak Falani? Newberry: Yes, they still speak Falani. So in all the ways that you can be affected by living and residing and learning about another culture, Africa had its impact on us. Diallo: What would you say was the biggest problem or challenge that you faced when you look back, specifically at smallpox and how the eradication program went? Newberry: That's a really good question. I think the biggest challenge was developing surveillance and response because we went out with the idea that we immunize people, protect against smallpox, and we would eliminate disease. But the strange thing was that we immunized 25 million, had a big celebration, and we still had smallpox. We gave out 50 million doses, we have even a bigger celebration, and we still have smallpox. Foege [William H. Foege] had figured out that we had to deal with the disease itself, so we needed to get our surveillance system moving, identify those exposed, and protect those individuals. And my colleagues and I, I don't think any of us could ever remember anyone who had been immunized, either early or late, even after onset of the disease, who had died. The biggest challenge, I think, was getting surveillance- and-response systems organized so that they really functioned where smallpox was being spread. I didn't get my surveillance reports, and so that's one thing we really kind of plugged into, getting surveillance workers. If you don't have surveillance, you can't respond. So I used the police telegraph because we didn't have any communication up to Gushiagu, which was well over 500 miles away on the Togo side of Ghana. And I hadn't received reports from the guys for about 6 months, and we were kind of concerned because that was an area where smallpox could occur, and we'd occasionally have smallpox on the other side of the border. So I sent up a Telex saying, "Give us your report." Well, I got back a report within a very short period that said they had 50 cases of smallpox. So I sent 2 teams, 2 vehicles in, and we trudged up there, and one bridge was out. We had to drive across the stream, and all this stuff. We got there about 4 o'clock in the afternoon, to this village called Gushiagu, and I said, "Okay, let's get in the field." Well, there was a lot of palaver, talk, talk, talk, talk. And I'm all anxious to go, and they're going talk, talk, talk, talk. And then, 'Let's go, let's go!" Talk, talk, talk. Finally they said, "We don't know how to tell you this, but when you sent the Telex requesting a surveillance report, he decided just to go and put anything down, so he thought, well, smallpox, about 50 cases would be a reasonable number. So we responded. And, of course, they were totally blown away by having 2 full vehicles with teams driving up there to help them with this outbreak. Diallo: They didn't think you'd come. Newberry: They didn't have a clue we would come. I think we didn't understand the traditional African culture, and we didn't appreciate it or use it very much. Everything looked to us like it had to be done a certain way. You couldn't hire your cousin or your brother because of nepotism; we tried to keep people honest according to our standards. And then we often had trouble with understanding their basic needs, how the African worked. So, like our payout teams would go out, and they always got a kickback. And so when we found out about that, it drove us crazy trying to stop it. But the real enemy was smallpox, and so it was real hard not to focus on smallpox. It was difficult not to get entangled in the personal and cultural and traditional kind of situation and instead really focus on the fact that everybody realized that the real enemy was smallpox. Let's keep that in our focus, our sights, and that's what we're going to fight. Diallo: In retrospect, since hindsight is 20/20, if you were the one who had been running the program overall, is there anything that you would have changed? Newberry: Yes. I think probably the Griggs and Jim Hicks [James W. Hicks] and Bill Foege, Mike Lane [J. Michael Lane], and Don Millar [J. Donald Millar], they all did a great job, there's no question about it. I think probably what I would have done differently, I would have assigned people long-term at strategic state-level assignments in-country. We did a little bit of that in Nigeria. Most recently, when eradicating polio from Nigeria, WHO, UNICEF [United Nations Children's Fund], and all these other high-flying groups would send somebody out for 2 or 3 weeks as an expert, tell you you're doing it wrong. During smallpox days, we didn't do that. We had key CDC personnel assigned to the epi units in northern states of Nigeria. And I lived up there, and that's how I learned the language. And what we did, is we used a holistic approach. We went to the emirs. Each emir has his own chancellor for health, his own government, his own courts, his own religious leaders, and so we went up as an extra pair of hands. And I always made a point to go, Melissa. You tell me where the toughest place to go to and get to is, and that's where I would go. I wouldn't care how tough it would be because that was the challenge. If I'm going to be there, then I want to show everybody that there's no place I won't go, there's nothing I won't do to get rid of this disease. So 6 years ago I wrote a plan for polio eradication, based on the institutional memory that I have from smallpox, and I gave it to some folks, and they said, "Oh, it's too expensive. We can't do that." And now we still have problems with polio in Nigeria. So that's what I would have done. I would have put more people in strategic places, living with, learning, and being a part of the local government, working with traditional leaders, whatever the structure is there, rather than to come fly in and then fly out again. That's probably the only change I would make, if it's a remarkably good, well-planned, and well-executed program with some superior people at all levels. Diallo: So, with everything that you learned from the smallpox campaign, you came back to the States and went on to work with guinea worm and polio. Were there any particular lessons that you learned from smallpox that you were then able to apply to those other 2 diseases? Newberry: Oh, many, many. I couldn't even begin to describe to you how valuable having that experience in smallpox was and being able to look at the logistics of the epidemiology, the use of information and data, that we applied in these other diseases. But for guinea worm, the major problem is trying to modify human behavior. With smallpox, that wasn't really the issue because if the chief says you'll be immunized and your family will be immunized, it happened. Well, in guinea worm, what I learned from my lessons with that, was that we got a little too fancy because all you need to eradicate guinea worm is a piece of cotton cloth, 120 batt, which is produced in every country in Africa. All the people have to do is pour their water through that before they drink it. Right? Simple. No. Diallo: Right. Newberry: You give me a glass of water and I pour it through my handkerchief before I drink it; it can't be done. So I did in a little experiment. I did training way up in the north, in Ghana. Well, you know the Housa tradition, their welcome is to ask, "How are you?" "How was your rest?" "How's your wife?" and "How are your children?" and so on like that. And so as part of my training, I used to add to "How are you?" "How was your rest?" "How's your wife?" "How are your children?" "Have you filtered your water today?" And I didn't tell anybody that we had done this; it was an experiment. And about a month, 6 weeks later, I sent a guy up just to see how the post-training reaction was, and he came back and he was blown away. He said, "They asked me how my wife was, how my children were, and they asked if I had filtered my water today." So, again, that's just one application that I found very useful. I think the other application I learned from smallpox is to look at the use of data. It's so important. With polio, we have an incredible ability to locate cases, and just collect specimens, determine whether this is polio or whether it's acute flaccid paralysis, and we can use that information because it tells where transmission of the virus is not being interrupted, and that's where we go. Again, the enemy is the poliovirus. We're going to eradicate it. We're going to kill that enemy. So I learned that through my smallpox experience. And I think one of the things that really, really distressed me then, and continues to distress me, was that we didn't leave a legacy. In every country that we went to work in for smallpox eradication, if they had a little, we took everything out. We didn't leave anything but an interest in immunization. And with the guinea worm program, we don't leave anything, maybe a few wells that'll last for a week or 10 days or whatever. You know, a year later, nobody uses it. So there's no legacy. But now, with polio, we've improved the global capacity and technical expertise of laboratories by 1,000%. It's unbelievable, the legacy we'll leave with those laboratories. The use of data then feeds into that because epidemiology is about learning the facts, it's about getting your lab confirmation so that you know what to do, when to do it, and where to do it. We also learned that, as far as the legacy, it should be complimentary. For instance, in India, we hold health fairs, so we're de-worming kids as well as addressing adult needs. We're looking at anemia, and we have these little health camps when we do immunization programs. And, again, it's kind of a holistic thing. I'd like to see this continue. So I think the idea of leaving a legacy is one of the things that we've been able to apply. Diallo: Oh, that's great; that's a good example. I know you're at CARE now and have worked with different organizations since this particular program with CDC. How do you see the differences in administration and so on? Newberry: Well, you know, Dave Sencer was a remarkable chief. I couldn't say enough good things about Dave Sencer. So if I were to look at some of the inherent difficulties with other organizations that I have and continue to work with, it's really a lack of leadership. Let me rephrase that. It's the difference in dynamic leadership. And we took some shortcuts at CDC. Our focus was on the eradication effort, and we didn't put a time line on it. When you put a time line-and in India we had a time line- then people look at missing it as a failure. It's not a failure. You missed a time line. So don't put a time line, like, you know, the time line from when the last person develops polio and passes the virus through his or her system. So I think that's probably one of the most important things that we can look at, the leadership we had, the support we had. I never made a request of headquarters that wasn't fulfilled immediately. I almost got jailed in Nigeria for stealing a boat because we had to immunize all the people living on the banks of the Volta Lake, and we didn't have a boat. So leadership and strong support, knowing that what we ask for that we could get. The organization, I think, with logistic focus, was tremendous and outstanding. I didn't see a lot of ego and turf problems; in fact, a lot of the normal barriers that are evident in a common effort, I didn't experience. Diallo: Dr. Sencer said I should ask you about negotiating your cook from Ghana to Nigeria. Is there a story behind that? Newberry: Well, we had the Ibos, and getting the Ibos in Nigeria to work for us in Ghana was a tremendous challenge. The Ghanaians thought people coming from Nigeria were taking jobs, and they were to a certain extent. But it took considerable intervention and effort going out to the highest levels of government to get that the Nigerian Ibos to come to Ghana with us. Then, when I went to Nigeria on a follow-up assignment, to close out the smallpox regional office, I took a Ghanaian, my driver-mechanic. I recruited him from Ghana, and I also had to go to the highest levels of government to get him approved. Diallo: You must have had good faith in your staff to go to those efforts. Newberry: I'd say it was allegiance, it was trust. We became like a family. Diallo: Well, that's good. Well, that's all the questions I have for you. But if there's anything else that you would like to add to go into posterity . . . Newberry: Well, we could talk all day about anecdotes. Like one time I had a Housa working for me who had been married 39 times. Diallo: Wow! Newberry: Thirty-nine times. And I would say, "Wow, this is really remarkable." I said, "How, answer me one thing. Have you married the same woman more than once?" And he said, "Oh, yeah." He was married to one woman, he said, 4 times, but not very many. There were about 3 or 4 women he'd been married to more than once. But this one woman, he was married to her about 4 times, and he couldn't live with her, couldn't live without her, couldn't live with her, couldn't live without her. Finally he learned to live without her. Many of the people we kept our relationship with long after. When I went back to Ghana for the guinea worm program, I recruited some of the same staff and the same superintendent, and they probably tell more anecdotes about me than I do about them. But, no. I think the lessons are humility on our part as we work in a program. I think the major task is teamwork and the recognition of who does the real work. It's the house-to-house work. It's getting in the communities, working with the community. And, unfortunately, CDC and most multilateral agencies are not connected at the household level. Take polio. That's one of the big problems. They're not connected at the household level. They come in with the experts at the upper, rarified air of the stratosphere, and that's not where it happens. It's got to be at the household level. And then you have to recognize that the enemy is the organism you're fighting; it's not people. When people tell me they're working in Nigeria and they're going to try to keep the Nigerians honest, well that's not our job. I mean, I love Nigeria; I really loved Nigeria. But I don't try to make them honest; I don't try to interfere with their culture, their tradition, and their practices. I always figured that you were successful in Nigeria when you only lose about 25% of your assets to theft and pilferage. Diallo: Wow, that's funny. Newberry: So, anyhow, Melissa, thank you so much. Diallo: Thank you very much. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310134984%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-fX2yR&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-13 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158vn emory:158vn Subject The topic of the resource CDC Smallpox Eradication USAID WHO Operations Officer Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 502921104 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diallo, Melissa McSwegin (Interviewer); Rollins School of Public Health; Graduate Student Newberry, David (Interviewee); CDC; Operations Officer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Title A name given to the resource NEWBERRY, DAVID Description An account of the resource David Newberry was an Operations Officer assigned to Ghana. Dave speaks of moving his family of 7 to Ghana, his Ghananian colleagues, cultural experiences, and how it impacted his own life and the lives of his children. Dave identifies surveillance and response systems as the biggest challenge during his time in Ghana. Dave went on to work in guinea worm and polio eradication and offers comments on how leadership and support were crucial to the success of the smallpox eradication effort. Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/6d5a1e1404f5438ea282aaaef5ee22f3.jpg bc48be88f6f273f40238ff6efd93d765 https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/bea45593d2b48447984e83ae33645ab2.pdf 3f622a9eb6649dd4597eb78826583ba3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> McNutt: This is an interview with Carolyn Olsen. It's July 14, 2006, and we're at the Center for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, and this is about her involvement with the West African Smallpox Eradication Program. This interview is being conducted as part of the reunion marking the 40th anniversary of the launch of this program. The interviewer is Kathryn McNutt. McNutt: I'm glad you're here. The purpose is to do an oral history. We hope to capture for future generations the memories that you have about all of the participants and their families in eradicating smallpox in West Africa. So, essentially we'll just kind of walk through your story and what your and your family's experiences were. You were involved in the Smallpox Eradication Program in Liberia. Could you tell me what years you were there? Olsen: We lived in Liberia from September '67 to May '70. McNutt: And what was your family situation. Olsen: My husband and I had just gotten married in March of '67. We came to CDC for training in July, August, and September, and then we went off to Liberia. McNutt: That's a bit of a transition. Olsen: Yes. We were in California before we came to Atlanta. So the weather in Atlanta was hot and humid, and when we arrived in Liberia, it was actually cooler and less humid. McNutt: Really? Olsen: Even though we were on the equator. McNutt: So, what was your experience? Kind of paint a picture for me. When you first got to Liberia, what were your living arrangements? Olsen: When we arrived in Liberia, the living arrangements were interesting. The house was outfitted so that you had your basic needs until your freight came. We were met at the airport, which was about 25 miles from town, and taken into town. Dr. Shalimar and his wife took us out to dinner. Then they took us to our little house and said that they would come back the next day. It was a Saturday. We were living in a kind of a compound, and right at the gate there was somebody else's packing crate that someone was living in. When your packing crates came, oftentimes the local people would take the box, which was very large, and make it into a house. It was probably 9:00 PM, but when you're on the equator, it gets dark at 6:00 PM and gets light at 6:00 AM. So we were going to go to bed. We had sheets on the windows because, again, we were just moving into this house. All of a sudden there was this bright light. So we opened windows, and a transformer on this pole was burning. We were going to call the fire department, but we realized we didn't have a telephone. So we just watched it and thought, "Well, if it comes to the house, the house is made of cinderblock." But the fire just kind of went out. And after it went out, we realized that we did have a telephone. However, the black rotary telephone that was under the bed had no cord or connection. Since we really didn't know where we were-and our neighbors were gone for the weekend, so-it was probably just as well that the telephone was inoperable. So that was an interesting start. McNutt: Is that when it hit you that you were in West Africa and not the States? Olsen: I think that when we stopped in Senegal before arriving in Liberia, that was when it hit that us that we were in a very different place. And living overseas then was very different than it is now. There was no email or operable telephone. And so basically for 3 years, we did not talk to our family. We sent letters and, if necessary, there was teletype and occasionally a telegram Also, occasionally at work, my husband would talk to CDC. But most of the time we were on our own.[ And, again, we didn't have a telephone-even though we were in the biggest city in the country. McNutt: Monrovia? Olsen: Yes. And on that first Monday, 2 days after we arrived, the USAID van came to get my husband to go to work. There were about 20 men on the porch, and the driver said to my husband, "Oh, they all want to work for your wife. They want to be the houseboy." I looked at them, and I thought, "How am I ever going to choose?" I'd never had house help. So I thought, "Well, I'll just take the first person, and I'll just have a different person every day until I pick somebody." McNutt: You're trying them out. Olsen: Trying them out. And so I told Timha I was only hiring him for one day. And in Liberia, they speak pidgeon English. It's a little different than English. So Timha came to work for me that day. He was an older man. I was only 25, so he probably was 35, but he seemed like an older man. And we didn't have anything in the house, and so I thought, "What can he do? Well, he could wash some clothes." So I had him wash my husband's shirts and a couple of things because we'd been traveling. After he finished that, he hung all our clothes on the bushes outside so that they could get dry. I thought that I could bring them in, so I said, he could go. And then I looked a little later, and I thought the shirts were mildewing because they all had blue and green on them. So I brought the clothes in and I used all the different cleaners to get the spots out, and I was thinking, "Boy, things really mildew fast here." So when Dennis came home for lunch, I told him we had to buy a dryer. Well, the next day came and everybody was on my porch again. Timha was there again, and I noticed that he was wearing a country shirt, made out of indigo. I realized then that when he was wringing the wet clothes, he had put them up against his shirt, and the dye in his shirt had bled on all of our clothing. Well, luckily, the driver had a friend or a brother or something, and he introduced me to David Parker, who then became our houseboy for the next 3 years. He was a very nice man, and it worked out very well. McNutt: You didn't have to try all of them. Olsen: Didn't have to try. And Timha became our gardener. That was the job he wanted. He didn't want to be the houseboy. Another episode with Timha was funny. The farmers do slash-and-burn in the fields. So I asked him to clean up the yard, and all of a sudden I look out and there's fire. Everything he cut down is burning. But other than that, keeping the house was easy. McNutt: You had electricity, you had a stove, refrigerator, a dryer. Olsen: We bought a dryer, and we had a stove that was furnished. The stove used gas, and so we always had to make sure, if we were going to have company, that we had enough gas so that all of a sudden we didn't run out in the middle of entertaining. Somehow, USAID [US Agency for International Development] would only give us one gas canister at a time. But the people were very, very nice. We felt very comfortable. And the American community was nice. But the smallpox program didn't quite fit with the embassy and it didn't quite fit with USAID, so we were kind of our own program. I am an environmental engineer, and so I wanted to find a job. I found one, working for a firm that was doing an extension of the airport. But then someone who I didn't know took a job that supposedly took a job away from a local person. The upshot was that no dependents could work except as schoolteachers or nurses, so I couldn't work. And then they approached me and asked if I would substitute at the American school. So I taught 7th through 12th-grade math. I had never taught before, but somebody told me the first day of school that you need to be really tough. So I was really tough. Any time the kids were not good, I would immediately give them a test. So after about a week, they just knew they were going to be good when they came in. And, having never had any education classes, I just taught them like I was taught. Years later, it was rewarding when I met some of my students who had actually done well. It was a relief that I didn't do permanent damage. McNutt: They can't blame you for anything. Olsen: Right, right. And then, I guess it was the second year, the principal or the superintendent of the American school crossed the Liberian government and was asked to leave Liberia, so I became superintendent. One day I was sitting in my office and the phone- I told you the phones didn't work, but all of a sudden the phone on my desk rang. I was so excited. I picked it up and said, "American Cooperative School," and they said, "Oh, wrong number," and it never rang again. But the thing that was so nice about our African experience, it gave us a feeling not only for Africa but also for what French countries were like, since we took trips, as part of the smallpox program, to Ivory Coast, which is a francophone country. And we were given vacations every 2 years or so. On our first vacation, in l968, we went with a Peace Corps charter to East Africa for 6 weeks. That was when Jomo Kenyatta was Prime Minister of Kenya, and Uganda, Tanzania, and Kenya were on such good terms with each other that they had common currency. McNutt: Really? Olsen: The drought had not occurred yet in Ethiopia. It was a very kind and gentle country under Emperor Haile Selassie. So we saw part of Africa that no longer exists, and it was a very enjoyable, interesting experience. It was also interesting to see how that part of Africa was different than West Africa. Now, we weren't always just going on vacations, but we were able to go to Europe also. Neither of us had been there, and to spend 6 weeks in Europe just wandering around was really interesting. It was winter, so we ended up in a lot of art museums and other museums. It gave us a whole different perspective on the world. McNutt: Sure. Olsen: Those breaks were nice because, when we went back to Liberia, we could kind of look at life a little differently. In Liberia, there were only a couple paved roads, and we just looked at the same thing every day. And as far as the smallpox program goes, I did not go up- country with Dennis because there was really no place to stay. Later on, when we lived in India, I used to travel with him because they had guest houses and different places where we could stay. But oftentimes he would stay with Peace Corps volunteers, and so a lot of the Peace Corps volunteers would then come to stay with us when they came to Monrovia. Toward the end of our stay, we got very excited because cholera was all of a sudden detected in Sierra Leone. They anticipated it coming into Liberia, so Dennis had an opportunity to meet with President Tubman, who was one of what they called an honorable. His parents had come back to Africa after Abraham Lincoln was president, when many of the descendants of slaves in the United States went back to Liberia. So Liberia was never colonized. But Liberia had an American influence. Their Pledge of Allegiance is just like ours, with a few words changed, and their flag is just like ours except it has only one star. And during the Second World War, Roberts Field was used as a base where the planes would fly to Africa from Brazil and then up to Europe. In fact, sometimes you would see houses made of military runway materials. But in theory President Tubman was a benevolent dictator. And when we came back, we were in Washington for a short time. I would tell people that Liberia was the kind of place that, if you went out at night, you always took a flashlight because there were no lights except the Moon and the stars, and you wanted to make sure you didn't step on a snake or step in a hole. You had no fear of any of the people. And at that time in Washington, DC, if you heard someone walking up behind you, you immediately turned to see who was there. I remember seeing the soldiers. They didn't carry real guns; they carried wooden guns. And oftentimes, after a parade, they would carry their shoes on their guns because they weren't used to wearing shoes, but they had to wear them for the parade. McNutt: How interesting. Olsen: But socially, we had to make your own entertainment. McNutt: Sure. Olsen: The last year we were there, they brought in television. But before that, it was the BBC news. And, actually, Liberia was 45 minutes off of Greenwich Mean Time. During World War II, there was supposedly a German ship off the shore that sent word they wanted to meet with the president of Liberia at 10 o'clock, and so Liberia changed its time so that the Germans would be late, as 10 o'clock became 10:45 Liberian standard time. McNutt: No way! Olsen: Yes. But sometimes people would say that Liberia was like a poorly done United States. But we were in our 20s, and it was our first assignment. We had a very enjoyable time and we met lots of people. At the American school, about 50% of the children who I taught were Americans, about 25% were from other embassies, and the other 25% were Liberian students. Of this last group, some had parents, who were doctors and honorables, and some students were on scholarship. So it was a nice blending. We got to know people from all kinds of different embassies, like the Asian embassies. And if you were their child's schoolteacher, you were a very special person. The students seemed to get together very well. They took care of each other. McNutt: So tell me a bit more about the social life. You were probably one of the younger couples there, I'm assuming. What were the social activities that you did? Olsen: There were a lot of cocktail parties, and you found excuses to have parties, like for St. Patrick's Day. The social life on weekends was really out at the Voice of America transmitter site, which was about 20 miles out of town. They had to maintain short grass around the transmitter, so they made it into a 9- hole golf course. The golf holes were sand with a little bit of oil mixed in. People kept the sand raked. So if you got out on the green, it was like putting on the bottom of a sink: the ball went down toward the hole, like water toward a drain. So you really had an unfair advantage. But it was very interesting. And we all had young Liberians as our caddies. They lived near Harrisburg, which was where Voice of America was. My regular caddy was Michael. He would make sure there were no snakes where I was going. But I never had a bad lie because Michael could pick up a golf ball with his toes, and by the time I got up to my ball, it was sitting on top of a nice little tuft of grass waiting to be hit. One year before Christmas, Michael said, "Missy"-they called a man Boss Man, and the ladies were called Missy-"Missy, are you going to get me a Christmas present?" "Well, Michael, what would you like?" And he said, "I was looking in the book, and I think I would like roller skates." Now, there was no pavement. I mean, there was a dirt road to get there, there was a dirt parking area, and there was grass on the golf course. And so I said, "I think that you really don't want roller skates." But in ways it was kind of sweet, the simplicity of life and not realizing some things. Another sweet moment was when we all made curtains. You could always tell when people came to Liberia by their curtains. People who came in the rainy season had bright curtains; people who came in the sunny season had dark curtains. I used to sew things, and I always had material left over. And David, who worked for us, said, "Are you going to use that material?" So I gave it to him. And one day, Dennis was up-country vaccinating in a certain area. David's wife and children were in that area, so he went along so that his children would definitely get vaccinated. And they took a picture. And there were my bedroom curtains-everybody was wearing them. McNutt: Oh, my gosh. Olsen: But I'm trying to think of some of the other social things we did. I remember our going-away party. Usually when you invited people for these cocktail parties, there were always so many things to do that maybe only 50% would come. And just about the time we were leaving the country, there was an outbreak of what they thought was smallpox. It was way out in the hinterland, where you had to hike in. It turned out to be monkeypox. But Dennis and his replacement, Randy Moser and the team hiked in. And so for our farewell party-and the Moser's welcome-to- Liberia party-they were all still up-country. But Barbara Moser and I were putting on this party, and everybody showed up. And our house was just like they used to stuff Volkswagens: it was just full of people. And about halfway into the party, Dennis and Randy arrived in their Dodge truck. One lady, as she was leaving, said to me, "That was a really good cheese ball." "Oh. Did you like it?" She said, "Yes. My friend and I ate the whole thing. We got stuck in the corner and we couldn't get out, so we would get drinks from out the window, and we just ate the whole cheese ball." I think the thing that was nice about Africa is it gave you a totally different perspective of the world and gave you a wonderment for travel, for things you can do-or the things you try to do anyway. McNutt: So it's great to have that perspective in your early or middle 20s. Olsen: Right, yes. McNutt: Changes your whole outlook. Olsen: Some of the people who are here at the reunion I have never met before. They were in the first group in '66. We were kind of the fill-in group, so we had a much smaller group. There were maybe 10 or 12 of us. So, except for meetings that were held about once a year in someplace like Abidjan, we didn't meet the other people because Africa was so remote that to get from one country to the other you often would have to fly to France first. McNutt: I've heard that. That's crazy. Olsen: And, as opposed to India, where we traveled all over, Africa was hard to travel in. But we had a lot of people from CDC come through -and it was always fun people, like Jim Hicks [James W. Hicks]. Then we would catch up on the news, because we were never quite sure what was happening in the world. Bad news travels fast though, so when Martin Luther King was killed, we knew within hours of its happening; the same thing with Bobby Kennedy. Like I said, bad news traveled very, very quickly. And it was hard to convince Liberians that there was actually a man on the Moon. That was happening while we were there. The local people would say, "Oh, yes, Missy, oh, yes, there's somebody on the Moon." But they had never flown; they had never really been aware of so many things out there. McNutt: It was 2 different worlds coming together. Olsen: Right. But, then again, you don't have to be educated to be smart, or to be wise. I think that all of us learned a lot from the different people we encountered. And at that time, since Liberia had a heavy American influence, we would have a lot of American foods. We had 2 supermarkets, run by Lebanese. The Lebanese also were the jewelers. When I went into the supermarket, I would check the cottage cheese to see if it was green or not. Or I would buy one box of cereal and take it home, and if it didn't have weevils, I'd go back and buy a whole bunch of boxes. But weevils and ants were just everywhere, so we kept everything that wasn't canned in the refrigerator. Even when I baked a cake, I took it out of the oven and put it in the refrigerator. If you left it sitting out for a little while, you'd come back and it would have ants all over it. And if I made spaghetti, I had a strainer so that, after it started boiling, I could scoop all the weevils off the top. Otherwise, it would look like you had pepper in your spaghetti. Flour was the hardest thing. You had to sift your flour because the weevils didn't go through the holes, and then you'd throw them away and you'd make whatever you were going to with the flour. McNutt: What did you do for water? Olsen: Originally, we were on a well. We had to boil the water and put it through a filter. We had these big tall filters with clay candles on them. Once a week, the filters would be boiled and cleaned so that we always had water. Now I was teaching school. One day I was taking a shower. I was totally lathered, and the power went off. So the water went off. So I called David, who brought me the water from the dehumidifier and I poured that on. I still needed more water. So then it was ice water from the refrigerator. So even to this day, I wash my hair, rinse it off, wash one arm, rinse it off, just in case. McNutt: Tools of the trade. Olsen: And after that day, we had a large plastic garbage can that we always stored water in, and every couple of weeks we would replace the water. [Toward the end of our tour, we were actually on a water system, but we still boiled our water just as a precaution. We had excellent restaurants. Salvatore's had probably the best Italian food I've ever eaten in my whole life because they had to make everything from scratch. So they had their own pasta, their own cannelloni. When I went to Italy, it was almost anticlimactic because I had better food in Liberia. And eating out was a very social thing. We ate out quite a bit. There was also a Lebanese restaurant. And this is kind of funny. They had an expansion, and the back area-again, you're talking 100% humidity, 90°-100°F-was decorated like an ice cave, with blown white plaster. You'd go back in there, and they'd have air-conditioning blowing down. They made wonderful hamburgers and shawarma sandwiches. And since I worked at the school, some of the teachers were from different neighborhoods. We had a Haitian French teacher, and we had some Liberian teachers. It was a nice way to get to know different nationalities and different people and work with them. McNutt: What did your family think about your taking off at age 25 for Africa? Olsen: Oh, I had already been to Brazil with the Peace Corps,. I grew up in Wyoming and my first job was in Los Angeles, and I had never been to California. Being the youngest of 7, I was a bit of an adventurer. McNutt: So what special training did you have? You mentioned training at the CDC. What prepared you or your husband for West Africa? Olsen: The participants all went through the EIS [Epidemic Intelligence Service] course, so even though my husband is not a doctor, he went through the course that's usually reserved for the EIS Officers. McNutt: Is that a 2-year course? Olsen: No. It was a 3-month summer course. The EIS Officers who were staying then worked with CDC for 2 years. But we went off to Africa. So there was a lot of statistics and epidemiology, even mechanics. The spouses were invited to attend any of the sessions that we wanted to, which was quite interesting. Plus they had another course, one taught by Dr. Waddy [B. B. Waddy], who was very English and had spent many, many years in Africa. He talked about tropical diseases and the African culture. Other people talked about things like the weather. So we had demographics, history, and geography. But when we first arrived in Liberia, we had very, very little because you were only allowed to carry 40 pounds of materials with you. So we had a couple books and a few other things. But then CDC sent some program materials, so, with nothing else to read, I read the book on tropical medicine. And one by one, you followed the pictures and would see the diagnosis. And not being a doctor, I would think, "Oh, I've got this rash." I think I needed something else to do. I had a couple bouts of food poisoning. One was caused by strawberries. They looked just like the kind of strawberries you bought at the grocery store, but they had probably been frozen and thawed a couple of times on their way to Africa. They used to actually send California lettuce and California celery to Liberia. It did not come by airplane; it came by ship. McNutt: And it made it? Olsen: Yes. We would save the lettuce for special occasions. We had these green Tupperware containers. If you took the core out of the lettuce and put the lettuce in a paper towel, it would last. I'm sure it had no food value, but it was like, "Oh, lettuce, lettuce from the States!" And the tsetse fly is in that part of Africa, so they couldn't raise cattle because they would be killed by the tsetse fly. So all the meat was imported. About the only thing you would get locally was chicken. McNutt: That answers a huge question for me because I did not see many cattle when I was in Liberia in June, and I was wondering why not. Olsen: There is some other bug that gets into clothing that is washed. The bug is in the water, and so you have to iron everything. McNutt: Interesting. Olsen: Yes. And at that time, there were parts of Liberia that were not mapped, because the heat would cause steam to rise in the rainforest. We had some friends who were with the USGS [US Geological Survey]. They kept waiting for a clear day. But if you look at the 1967 USGS map, there was a section of the Liberia map , they probably have mapped the area by now because of the satellites. But I'll tell you about one of our regular activities. Everybody wanted to have some African art. It was very "in" in the States to have African art, and so people would buy different things. There was a group of vendors or sellers, who were called Charleys. So there would be Charley number 1, Charley number 2, Charley number 3. And if you purchased something from them, you could actually write check to "Charley Number 3". Liberia used the US dollar. So I have cancelled checks to Charley number so-and-so. The Charley's must have had a great network. You would hear a noise on your front porch, and then you'd hear the doorbell ring. You would open the door, and there would be like a little store. The Charley would have laid down all his artifacts, and then you would look to see if there was anything you wanted. They would often come on weekends when most people were at home, and we would bargain and bargain. The Muslim Charley's, would sometimes take a break and go say their prayers and come back, and you would bargain some more. My husband didn't like to bargain, so I would be out on the porch to bargain, and then I would bring an artifact in the house and he'd, "Oh, that is so ugly, I don't like it in our house!" and I would go bring it back out and the price would be lowered. One day, I started bargaining because I was bored and there was nothing else to do. I was probably at maybe $10 and the Charley was at $15, and after an hour we were going nowhere. And then I decided I would use a different technique, and I said, "Well, $7." And he looked at me and said, "Missy, $7, two aspirin, you give me a headache." And I still have the artifact. It looks like somebody made it out of mud. It's an interesting, kind of strange piece. One time, my husband was up-country. We had night watchmen, so I felt perfectly safe. One of the Charleys that I hadn't dealt with before came to the door. He had a fine Senefo artifact. It was the only piece he had, and so I knew there wasn't going to be a lot of bargaining. I think I probably ended up spending $100 or maybe $125. It's a beautiful piece, and I must get it into a museum someday. But the next night the doorbell rings, and there he is again, and he wants to buy it back from me for $250. So evidently, somebody had heard about it and had offered him much more. But I said, "No, no, no. It is sold." McNutt: Someone within your group heard? Olsen: One of his customers, because we would describe art pieces we were interested in obtaining. The Charley would then try to find them. . If you had company, especially when anybody from the States was visiting, the Charleys knew it. If you were having a cocktail party, all of a sudden you would hear a ring, and there would be tie-dye on the porch banisters and different Africa items at their little store on the porch. And then, sometimes rogues-they didn't call them burglars in Liberia-came in at night. They never hurt anybody. McNutt: While somebody was there? Olsen: Yes. So at night, when you went to bed, you locked the front door, the kitchen door, and every door in the house. You had these big skeleton keys. Then you locked yourself in the bedroom. And if you were lucky, you had a bathroom attached to the bedroom, but if not, you locked the bathroom too. And off to bed you went. The first incident occurred the first time my husband was out of the country. It was my first night alone in Africa and I had locked myself in. I hear this tap-tap on the window, and I think, "My goodness, somebody's coming in." Finally, I looked out, and there was my husband throwing rocks at the window. He had come back early, and when he rang the doorbell, it rang in the kitchen, and I was 2 locked doors away. McNutt: Your husband was trying to break in. Olsen: Yeah. But then one time I got up in the morning, went into the kitchen, to turn the coffee on, and noticed that we had been broken in. I ran out of the kitchen and locked the door, and I said, "We've been robbed." And Dennis said, "What did they take?" I said, "The water filter." And he said, "What?" And I said, "They were in the kitchen. The only thing I could see is that the water filter was gone and the window was gone." (We had these sliding windows). It was just before Thanksgiving, and the embassy had brought in turkeys for us. So we had 3 turkeys in our kitchen freezer, one for Dr. Thompson and his family and 2 for us. Well, the rogues had taken 2 turkeys and a kitchen curtain to wrap them in because they were frozen solid. That's all they took. We all had tin roofs, and when it would rain, it was like somebody playing the drums. We had the most exciting electrical storms. There were big booms, and the power would go out. The storms would come in off the ocean. The robberies were timed. Just as the thunder boom resounded, the rogues would take the window out. In our bedroom, we slept with our heads against the wall. On the other side of the wall was where the burglars had actually come in the house. We didn't hear them at all. We were in embassy housing. So Dennis went to the embassy to report that we had been rogued. The burglars had gone through the whole area; they had taken money; they had taken stereo equipment. Dennis said he felt kind of strange saying they took 2 turkeys and the kitchen curtain. The robbers had tried to get out of the kitchen, but they couldn't get the door open, so they were confined to that little area. McNutt: That's funny. So, security-wise, you weren't worried while you were there. Olsen: No. We were never in fear. I mean, there was just no concern. McNutt: It was relatively stable out there? Olsen: Very, very stable. Again, you had a night guard. But you paid him, and I'm sure he paid whoever it was that was stealing so they wouldn't come and rogue you. I have a letter that a night guard wrote me. He was a very old man. The letter said, "Dear Mother, please buy me a bed so I can sleep on your couch while I guard. I might have considered his request if he had called me Missy, but "Dear Mother." McNutt: What kind of problems did you have in establishing working relationships with the African counterparts there? Olsen: Well, I wasn't working, except at the school. I really didn't have problems. By that time, I could understand pidgeon English, and usually they were a very kind and quiet people. Many times, the little boys who played soccer with a grapefruit in the vacant lot next door would come over to get a drink of water or just to say hello. Or they would pick the papaya off my tree and then want to sell it to me. But we never felt threatened at all. I'm sure things have changed-the world has changed-but then it was very nice. They made beautiful tie-dye. I used to buy tie-dyed material from the lady who lived under the bridge. Her name was Mama Sony. I would take other American women to her. I think sometimes people were reluctant to interact with local people but I was very comfortable with them because I was teaching Liberian children at school and working with Liberians. So it was very natural. At that time, there was a large international population, too. There was the German store, and there was a large Irish population, so we made many international friends. We would get invited to their houses for dinner, and so we'd have all kinds of different foods. McNutt: So, what about your husband? Within the smallpox program, how did he or the team work to get people to sign on to the program and agree to being vaccinated? Did they have to go to tribal leaders? Olsen: They didn't have the kind of health systems then that they had in some of the colonial countries. Oftentimes they would go to the different villages. And all of his staff were Liberian. He oversaw program operations, and Dr. Thompson was in charge of the medical aspect. I don't know; he'll probably describe it. But his office was incredible. It looked like it washed out to sea and came back. His office was in an interior room, and somebody had painted it a few years before, but when they painted it, if there was a bookcase, they just painted around the bookcase, so you could see where the furniture had been in the past. I remember one time he was really upset because, again, it was really humid and really hot, and he had gone to the USAID mission and asked if he could have an air-conditioner. And they said, "No, that's a Liberian building, you can't have an air conditioner, or everybody will want one." The statement that was made was, "You have the benefit of working with local people. Therefore, you should be able to cope with the local conditions." But he enjoyed working with the Liberian staff. Years later, he went to Liberia on short-term consultancies. His staff were still there and were very pleased to see him. He went up country, where he found out that his driver was now a paramount chief in one of the villages. On his way back, there was a pole thrown across the highway, which meant stop. It was placed there because John Masaquoi wanted to give him a present. He had this country shirt. He stepped aside and said to Dennis, "Tell Carolyn to wash it in Clorox; it's been under the bed." We have only fond memories. We have things that probably no longer exist. They made country money. Nimba Mountain had such rich iron ore that they just pounded the iron ore into 6- inch sticks with kind of a forked end and a round circle at the top and twisted, unrefined iron; one piece of country money was worth a penny. Years later, I met somebody whose cousin had lived in Liberia back in the Firestone days. She used to go into the bush. In the afternoon, they would tell stories, so she made a whole book of notes. After Liberia had all its problems, she went back to her notes that she had taken in the '40s, and even though she was in her 70s, she made a book on Liberian folk tales. It is entitled, You Can't Unsneeze a Sneeze. And reading those tales just brought back so many memories. Food, for instance. They have one thing that's made out of casava called dumb boy, and it is to make you feel full. And you're a dumb boy if you don't swallow it quick because if you chew on it, it swells in your mouth and you can't swallow it. McNutt: That's interesting. Olsen: And then you would eat it with just a little bit of what they called soup, which is kind of like our chili. McNutt: Wow. I love to hear these stories. You said that you did a lot of work, and you spent a lot of time with the locals as well as the expatriates. What was it like coming back to the States? How did you fit in again? Olsen: We came to Atlanta for about a month, and then Dennis was assigned to San Francisco Bay area. One of the hardest things was going back into the grocery stores, places where you had so many options. You had a whole row of dog food. We had gotten so used to having a limited amount. In Liberia, if the ship came in, everybody knew that there was fresh or at least new products. I think the part that amazes me is when you return to the states and you start to tell people about your experiences, and suddenly their eyes glaze over. Then you realize that you are now a part of a different group. If you really want to communicate about travel or about experiences, you have to find a new group of people who also have done similar things or who are well-read. I find that people who are well-read oftentimes enjoy the same interests. The thing about reading or seeing movies of these areas, be it Darfur or whatever, you don't get the heat and the smell. And the heat and the smell are just as much a part of everything as everything else. I think it gives you an appreciation in the United States of many things, but at the same time, it makes you realize that you're fortunate and you need to give something back. McNutt: What was the toughest problem you faced, and how did you handle it? Olsen: It must have been so tough, I put it out of my mind. I feel like I had no problems. Oh, I know. This is a funny problem, but it seemed traumatic at the time. They didn't have parallel parking. You pulled in. And a parking spot in front of the grocery store was always prized. We had a little green Volkswagen, and I'd just been to the grocery store. I was backing out. I looked and no cars were coming; it was clear. And I backed up and I ran into a car, a big black Mercedes. McNutt: Oh no! Olsen: And a lady came out. I could tell she was an honorable's wife. I was in the middle of the main street, but all of a sudden, I was totally surrounded by Liberians. Everybody was talking about this great wreck. The woman was distressed. The policeman was there. And I am the only white face in the crowd. All of a sudden this very tall black man comes and puts his arm around me and stands next to me. He was the husband of one of the schoolteachers at the American School. Dennis was up-country, and so I gave the woman my name and I told her we would have her car fixed. What had happened was, she had passed my parking spot, but her friend said, "Oh, there's somebody coming out," so she backed up, and so she ran into me. McNutt: She should have been looking for you. Olsen: She should have been looking for me. So I was looking for oncoming traffic, and she is backing up down the street. Bang! I was so distressed. I went home and knitted. Whenever I'm distressed, I knit, so I knitted. And when Dennis came back, I said, "You've got to talk to Honorable so-and-so because I ran into his wife's car." Well, the honorable said, "Forget it. She was distressed because she had just gotten it out of the shop from her last wreck." But, I mean, when you're suddenly surrounded, I mean, it's scary. McNutt: So you were glad that man was able to help you. Olsen: Oh, yes, yes. He said he was driving down the street and he saw this big crowd of people. When somebody sees a crowd, something must be happening. He said, "And there you are in the middle of it." McNutt: So, back to smallpox, at what point did you think that smallpox would actually be eradicated in Liberia and West Africa? Olsen: Well, I have to tell you, I've never seen a case of smallpox. As close as we came was toward the end, when they found a case of monkeypox. It was the first time they had found monkeypox transmitted to man, and the lesions looked like smallpox, but it didn't manifest in the rest of the family. And so a lot of people went up into that area. They would take a scab and send it to CDC to be verified. So it was kind of like the show-and- tell. But it was kind of an exciting time. But, like I said, I never saw a single case of smallpox. Evidently, somebody had come through and vaccinated the people years before. Or perhaps, because of their isolation, smallpox just never happened there. But there was so much migration. People from other countries moving in and moving out. McNutt: The tribes aren't divided along country lines. Olsen: No. McNutt: So, had your husband seen smallpox there? He was more up- country. Olsen: Not in Liberia. He saw it in Sierra Leone. He went there short- term. One day we were driving. Our car hadn't arrived, so we always took the taxis. And I said, "Dennis, look! I think I see smallpox!" And here was this little kid sitting there by the road. They have what they call the sandy society, and they have mud stuck all over them, and it looked like some kind of disease. But taxis were interesting. The taxi drivers spoke in pidgeon English. You could take a bus for 5 cents, or you could take a taxi for 25 cents. But you would have to flag the taxis down. Even the policemen didn't have police cars; they used taxis. You would take a taxi up-country. Our Peace Corps friends would go down to the taxi area to catch a taxi up-country. One time the taxi driver was very aggressive. His fare was inexpensive to take them all the way back up to their village. They went with him, and the person in front was not talking. About 5 miles out of Monrovia they realized the passenger in the front was dead. The taxi driver was taking him back to his village. McNutt: Oh, my God. Olsen: One night we had a group of Peace Corps people come to visit. It was late, so we were going to take them back to where they were living in Monrovia. We were going down the main street; 4 of us were in the back of a Volkswagen, and 2 big guys were up front. And all of a sudden this taxi pulls around and tries to stop us. And pretty soon this taxi goes around us again, yelling, "Stop in the name of the law!" So we pulled over, and this policeman, who was drunk, comes to our car and says, "You're under arrest! You have 2 people in the front, you have 4 in the back. That's 7; that's too many." And he said, "Follow me. I'm taking you to the police station." And we're thinking, well, should we go or should we not because we had always been instructed to go to the embassy. The one fellow in the front with Dennis was Peace Corps, and he was teaching law. He said, "I'd like to see this part of the law." So we proceeded to the police station. It was midnight. So Dennis and the arresting officer walk into the police station. They have to wake up the policeman on duty. So now the policeman and the arresting officer come out to the car, and you can tell that this policeman is really tired. He looks in the car and says, "Professor!" The policeman was one of the lawyer's students. So policeman said to the arresting officer, "Now, I know these people and they are okay, so we will let them go." It's now like 12:30 AM. Just as we're leaving, the officer who had tried to arrest us said, "Okay, I'll let you go this time, but if I see you out after midnight, there'll be no mercy." Policemen also directed traffic. If they arrested you, they would get in the car so that they could take them to the police station. But we had these little driver's licenses, little red books. The people who work there for business had told us that if we ever got stopped to just put a dollar in the license and give it back, and they'd let us go. Well, I had one friend. She was downtown, and this policeman started to give her a ticket, and she had done nothing wrong. So she proceeded to give him the riot act. He took her license and put a dollar in it and gave it to her! McNutt: How funny! Olsen: But, again, you would go to the movie and you would always have some young fellow watch your car. When you got out, you would give him a quarter or 50 cents, and your car was safe. Your car probably would have been safe anyway, but it's just the way that they made some extra money. But the movies were interesting because it was back when they had reels. Sometimes you would see the middle reel, the first reel, and then you had to try to figure out the movie. Or they would have broken it and spliced it in backwards or something. When we saw "Wait Until Dark," the opening scene showed the plane backing into the airport port from the sky. McNutt: Whoa! Is there anything from your experience or from the program that you were involved with that you would change? Olsen: Nothing I would change. It was such a wonderful opportunity. I think that it is a shame that young people don't have that opportunity now. You know, Peace Corps sometimes gives them an opportunity. But, actually, they usually work at a grassroots level, and this was more on the professional level. The thing that was kind of amazing was that most of the people in the smallpox program were probably 10-20 years younger than their counterparts. They were all in their mid-20s or early 30s, and most of the doctors and people in Liberia that Dennis worked with were probably in their 40s or 50s. On the social level, it probably took us 2 years before we started getting invited to Liberian houses. When we were in India, it was much easier. In India, we lived in what was basically an Indian house, and we would have different people come to a party at our house, which was probably not as good as what they lived in. So then when we would be in their city or New Delhi, they did not feel uncomfortable inviting us to their house. So that made it much easier to interact. But I think in Liberia, there was a status level that was involved. Even though the salaries weren't that good and the housing wasn't that good compared to stateside, they were still better than what many people had. When the power went out, we had a game we would play. Whoever had the flashlight would have the almanac and ask questions. The other entertainment, if it was light, was watching the geckos. But I think that we benefited because of the people who went before us, in 1966. So I would say the training for the group that went in '67 was good. The other thing is, Bill Foege [William H. Foege] and the Thompsons had had to leave Nigeria, because of the civil war, so they were at CDC during our training and gave us first-hand experiences of what it was like. And different people would tell you things to take to your post. We were very spoiled as far as having American foods. People who came to visit from Mauritania or Guinea would think they'd died and gone to heaven because they could have dill pickles and ice cream and all these things that you couldn't get in other countries. McNutt: So, how did participating with this project change your life? Olsen: I would say that, being an environmental engineer, it gave me more of a global view of the world, and also a real appreciation for water , especially the needs of people for clean drinking water. Unless you have lived in a situation where you really have to plan what you're going to drink, you don't have that same appreciation for water. And remember we lived in Africa before bottled water. Nobody carried bottled water around, and you didn't go to the store and buy a case of bottled water. So you had to make sure that your water and your food were clean and good. That was a challenge. McNutt: And did this first experience contribute to later work experience? You talked about India. Olsen: Yes, India, and in my profession. I was a utility manager, and I was on the board of American Water Works and Water for People. Then I was the president of the nonprofit Water for People. For the last group, I would talk to people, trying to raise money for water projects. And being a woman in a professional field, Africa was, to some degree, a matriarchal type society, but in India you realize how downtrodden women are. But in any society, it's the women who end up carrying the water. McNutt: And the little ones. Olsen: The little ones, yes. And so it just gave me a real appreciation, for different cultures. And to know that almost everywhere you go, there are people who are wiser than you. McNutt: So is there anything else that you want to add? Any words of wisdom for the next generation of public health workers? I mean, you've had so many nuggets already. Any last statements? Olsen: I think that it is very good that we were able to see the world and see the problems of the world. I think also that people need to realize that there are problems here that are also very trying, and we need to be aware of that. People really need to know about health issues. Maybe we don't have the tropical diseases, but we have the overweight and the diabetes and the other things that affect that same socioeconomic group here. Water and wastewater are my areas of special interest. Global warming and cultural changes are going to see the development public health problems that we don't even envision yet. McNutt: Thank you for your time. Olsen: Thank you. McNutt: What a wonderful discussion. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310135748%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-Hx2bg&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158ws emory:158ws Subject The topic of the resource CDC Smallpox Eradication Life as expatriate wife USAID WHO Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 753573744 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McNutt, Kathryn (Interviewer); Rollins School of Public Health; Graduate Student Olsen, Carolyn (Interviewee); CDC; Wife of Operations Officer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Centers for Disease Control Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Title A name given to the resource OLSEN, CAROLYN Description An account of the resource Carolyn Olsen recalls life as an expatriate in Monrovia, Liberia in the period of 1966-1970 while her husband, Dennis Olsen, served as Operations Officer. Carolyn talks of taking a job as a teacher in Monrovia, expatriate social activities, and daily life living in Monrovia. Carolyn also briefly compares life with the smallpox program in Liberia to their later posting in India. Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/ff2c1f1c3d3c1897a983062e3a76e2d3.jpg b119c483da7ce5e9c4aff054054e1608 https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/fbb5466d1fb6254baf543bb124d2ad4c.pdf 09cf8366c7d7f1119912c3f9050f7d85 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Dennis Olsen on July 14, 2006, at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, about his involvement with the West African Smallpox Eradication Project. The interview is being conducted as part of a reunion marking the 40th anniversary of the launch of the program. The interviewer's name is Diane Drew. Drew: Could you start by telling me a little bit about your background- where you grew up, your schooling, and how you got headed into whatever career decisions you made? Olsen: I was born in 1939. I grew up in Danville, Oregon. My folks moved there in '41. All my schooling through high school was there. Then I went off to the University of Oregon and got a degree in science. And as part of the college leaving process, I went over to the placement office. I was thinking, "I know I'm going into the military, but I'll talk to some folks who are here talking about their companies and organizations." I'd never given public health a thought. And a gentleman by the name of E. J. Spyke, Jerry Spyke, was there representing the Centers for Disease Control. I was quite intrigued and thought, "Well, this would be maybe a good starting point." Government service had never really crossed my mind, but I didn't have any money whatsoever and knew I wouldn't have any coming out of the military. I accepted the position that was offered and thought, "Well, I'll do that for a while and see what it's like, and then probably go back to school to get a graduate degree," as people were doing in those days as a matter of course rather than desire, and I stayed with CDC for 32 years. Drew: Wow! Olsen: Never did go back to school. Whatever other education I got was through the organization both in formal education and working in the field. Drew: And when you came to CDC, did you come to headquarters right at the beginning? Olsen: No. My assignment was the first trainee public health advisor to be assigned to the State of Washington, in Seattle. And I was in Seattle for I think 6 months, and then the second co-op (cooperative agreement) came, and I was transferred over to Tacoma, Pierce County. This was all working with the Venereal Disease Eradication Program. And I was there for 6 months. Then I was contacted by the regional office folks in San Francisco, CDC people. They asked if I was interested in becoming a recruiter for CDC, much the same as E. J. Spyke had recruited me. So I agreed to do that and was transferred down to Los Angeles because that was the base of operation for that. And for a while, I was the only one there doing that. Traveled in, I think, it was 9 Western states at the time, going to college campuses and, if there weren't college campuses, running ads in newspapers. Then I was joined by another fellow. And I think I did that for 3 years. Then I was asked if I was interested in going with a program that CDC was taking command of, to a certain degree, the Malaria Eradication Program. So I came back to Atlanta and was in training status. But as it worked out, there were differences of opinion as to who would really have control-USAID [U.S. Agency for International Development], who held the purse strings, or CDC, who had operational responsibility. And because they didn't agree, most of us in that training program never did see work in the field. I was to go to Costa Rica, but in the meantime was contacted by Billy Griggs to see if I wanted to go to West Africa and join the smallpox program. I agreed then to go and take that up as an assignment. I asked what country. It was either going to be Sierra Leone or Liberia, but I requested Liberia, and that's what happened. Carol and I got married just before going over. Drew: So you'd known each other before. Olsen: We'd known each other about a year. Drew: Did she come from Oregon originally, too? Olsen: Wyoming, Cheyenne, Wyoming. She was a civil sanitary engineer. She worked with the city of Los Angeles, CA. We did our training here in Atlanta in the months of July, August, and September, and we were happy to get to West Africa and Liberia. Drew: Was that a francophone country? Olsen: Anglophone country. Olsen: I think there was Sierra Leone, Guinea, Liberia, and there must have been one other. Drew: Nigeria? Olsen: Nigeria, they were already had public health advisors and physicians. But they may have been training some others to go. It's just too long ago for me to remember who all was there. But I do remember those other countries because I was selecting between Liberia and Sierra Leone. Drew: Was there a program already in operation by the time you got there? Olsen: No. Drew: You were basically sort of starting. Olsen: We were. Drew: Was your program like some of them, working with both measles control and smallpox eradication? Olsen: To my knowledge, at least for the group that went over at the time we did in '67, that was always the intention. Smallpox was the overriding issue and disease we were dealing with, but since we were there and giving vaccinations, the measles vaccine was provided, and that was also then administered. Drew: Tell me a bit, if you would, about traveling to Liberia and maybe the first few weeks or months there, both from your point of view and maybe about you and your wife in terms of kind of the cultural differences, who was setting up the program, any of that. Olsen: CDC was really thorough, I thought, and had experienced people to try to prepare us for the differences that we would find culturally and environmentally. And I don't remember that we had much of a cultural shock. We always say we had more coming home after 3 years than we did going. The States were overwhelming again with all the things available to you. You no longer could even make a decision on which tie to select because the selections were too great. But when we arrived in Liberia, I think the first thing that struck us was the architectural development, if you will, which was limited and so different, and just the tropical rainforest itself. You can only imagine these things and see pictures in books. But seeing it, I thought, yes, this is quite different than what we would have been thinking about. We were, of course, well taken care of by representatives from USAID. They were very kind to us and had housing available- not staffed or anything, but with a guest kit to get started. Dr. Shalimar [sp.] was the health officer for USAID; he and his wife were very gracious people. So it was an easy transition. Drew: Did they have a medical officer from CDC? Olsen: Not then. That came later. The issue around that was that a Dr. Pifer [John Pifer] was supposed to come. But there was an outbreak of war, in Benin, Nigeria, and so CDC had to make some staffing changes because the people in Benin, including Dr. Foege [William H. Foege], all had to leave. So Dr. Thompson [David M. Thompson] and his wife-I think they had one child at that time-came to Liberia, and Dr. Pifer eventually went off to Nigeria. But the Thompsons didn't show up for maybe 3 months or longer after we were already in country. For housing, they put us into a compound that had 2 duplexes. There were 2 other Americans there, a fellow with the Geologic Survey, Jim Sites, and Dorothy Deloof, who was a nurse for the Kennedy Hospital that was being built. And I guess they were both up-country or something. So Carolyn and I are there all alone. We have no phone, no outside road, no car. We're just there. The curtains on the windows were actually sheets. And we were then thinking, "All right, it's time to sleep," and then there's a huge thunder and lightning storm, and rain, which, coming off the ocean onto these corrugated tin roofs was extremely loud.. . And all of a sudden, there was a huge bright light and a big bang, and we pulled one of these curtain things back and looked out, and the lightning had hit a transformer on the pole just adjacent to the house. Fire was coming down the line toward the house and all we could do was sit there and watch it. It went out before it got particularly far. I guess one of us turned to the other one and said, "Let's go out to dinner." But we didn't even know where dinner was. We had been dropped off; we didn't know which direction was what, except the road to get back to the airport. The next day, life started to look more normal as we were introduced to the people at USAID. We started hiring staff for the house, which I'm sure Carolyn will be telling more about that than me. The way this usually happened was that some of the Liberian staff at USAID, knowing that you were new, would send their relatives over to see if they could be employed as staff. And there were little financial kickbacks for this. Well, one man showed up to be our houseboy. His name was Timma. He was a nice, gentle, older man. Carolyn hired him, and he was quite willing to work. But he did the laundry one day shortly thereafter, and we noticed that all of our clothing, our whites particularly, were sort of grayish-blue. He was hanging them on the leaves and things; he was seemingly ignoring the clothesline. Well, it turns out that Timma had on a country shirt, and the dyes in it, as he would wring these things out, were coming off on our clothes. So Timma got another job as our gardener. Then we were introduced to a young man by the name of David Parker, who stayed with us for 3 years, which was unusual because most people have several houseboys. But David and Carolyn and I hit it off. Then, work-wise, we were introduced to the Liberian public health system. It was, I think it's fair to say, primitive. It existed in Monrovia, the capital, but there's no infrastructure up-country for public health beyond some dilapidated buildingsand very poorly trained staff, who are not supervised and not really provided with medical supplies. One author wrote that,"Liberia never suffered the benefits of colonialism." Most of the other countries had been colonized and had developed infrastructure outside the capitol city. Liberia was proud that it had never been colonized Drew: I if I remember correctly, Liberia has ties to the United States in a sense, don't they? Olsen: Yes. Back in the 1800s, the 1840s maybe, there was this whole plan to move freed slaves back to the areas in from which they had originally come. This was most likely guess work for the most part. Drew: Sure. Olsen: The capital of Liberia is Monrovia. The then President was W.V.S Tubman. And their government is made up pretty much like the United States. It's a bicameral system, and their flag is a star and red and white stripes, things like that, so a lot of connection. Now, there was a lot of American money that went in to make sure that they had an opportunity to survive . . They were going to farm, but farming never really took hold. For awhile, they lived on the ships that they arrived on. Many people died from tropical diseases, etc. But, overtime survivors and new arrivals settled and developed what is now Liberia. In any event, we then were introduced to the public health system, and I was to have a counterpart, Dr. Thomas, a Liberian doctor. We were to report to a naturalized Liberian, a Haitian doctor, Dr. Titus. As CDC assignees we reported to, and received administrative assistance from, USAID. It all seemed to work reasonably well. It was hard to get things started. Dr. Thomas wasn't particularly insistent. We tried to move things from the training to go up-country, but there was always a little problem with getting gasoline for the vehicles and getting the teams organized. It was just slow- going. I think we were all just feeling each other out. I spent a lot of time in training programs because we were using Ped-O-Jet equipment, and so we spent a lot of classroom time in operations maintenance of it. And, of course, we had to wait for supplies to come in. There was always something in the early days that was keeping us from going up-country. Drew: That must have been kind of frustrating in terms of developing a program. Olsen: Yes. Since there wasn't really anything there, there wasn't a system that you could just tie into and say, "When these other things come, then we will make the changes and augment your program. Or we'll use some of your materials and supplies; we will then supplement that." There was just nothing. So we had to wait for the vehicles; we had to wait for the parts for the vehicles. Things broke down pretty easily. Drew: What was the prevalence of smallpox or measles? Olsen: It was pretty much unknown because the infrastructure wasn't there. There was no reporting system. Drew: So it wasn't that it didn't exist. It was just that you really didn't have any data to know? Olsen: I'm pretty sure that there wasn't much in the way of smallpox that I have heard about. We made early inquiries with the population up-country-the mining organizations and what health services existed (missionary hospitals)-to see, just as a quasi- surveillance system, what was going on. And I'm pretty sure that there wasn't any smallpox at that time. There had been a previous vaccination program run by an organization called Brothers Brothers that had gone through; I forget what years they conducted a program there. I heard varying reports as to how they were managed and what you could anticipate. Measles is a rash illness, and you would hear about it from folks who were coming down from up-country. So what I planned is that, number one, we needed to get the vaccination teams trained and up and running in the field. Surveillance had to sort of take care of itself. We knew there was smallpox in neighboring Sierra Leone, and so our plan was that it was the border that was most likely going to be impacted. We knew that there was an up-and-running program in the Ivory Coast, which was on the southeastern side of Liberia. That border would be much harder to get to logistically; we probably wouldn't leave for there until we could learn more as to where the prevalence of the disease was, if there was any. And as for the Guinea border up north, a couple of mining organizations weren't seeing any rash like illnesses so we weren't planning to go up that way initially. And once we got up and running and got supplies, it worked reasonably well. We had some good teams. We had 5 or 6 actual vaccination teams, 2 assessment teams. Olsen: These team members had to be pulled from other kinds of projects. That's the way it works in these countries where there are a limited number of resources. We established the logistics system to receive the goods and housed them at Mambo Point, which is where the "preventive health services" was. I had to set up a warehouse inside the building and train someone to do the warehousing and keep track of this and that. Vaccines were stored at the American Embassy-they had a huge freezer storage facility-because there was nothing, initially, in Monrovia that we could find. We eventually moved the vaccine supply out of there to a Montserado Fishing Company, which had freezer facilities. So when I went in to get the vaccines-the Liberians wouldn't go into those buildings - it was too cold for them. I had to go in. Drew: Really? Olsen: All the boxes and so forth smelled like fish. But that's where we stored the vaccines. Drew: Apparently, that was one of the difficulties that some folks faced when trying to deal with the measles vaccine, in particular, was . . . Olsen: Cold, always cold. Drew: Yes. Olsen: We helped solve the cold-chain problem, and I'll get to that. But one of the more difficult parts of distribution of the vaccines was lack of communications with the hinterland, no infrastructure, and then getting to and from these places. The road networks were poorly maintained dirt roads. And we had these big Dodge power wagons that were provided. They were far too big for what we needed. They were fine on for paved roads, but we only had like 50 miles of paved roads. So it was difficult to transport things, and a lot of walking was involved. And, of course, there's this cold-chain issue then, getting the ice. We would have been better off had we been able to negotiate for the kinds of vehicles that were going in because we could have used Toyota Land Cruisers, which were smaller. They were not the things that people run around in today with all the plushness and all the comfort]. They were much smaller. And, there was a Toyota dealership with a service department in Monrovia. And we solved, to the best we could, our cold-chain problems because there was a wide distribution of Lebanese merchants in our area. Wherever you'd go, to a village of any size or along the road, there would be a Lebanese merchant. And all of these merchants had functioning refrigerators. Drew: That's interesting. Olsen: And they'd keep them maintained for the goods that they would sell. They acted as the bankers for the locals and any number of different things, and this was all surely in agreement with the government so that they could stay in business. And the Lebanese merchants were kind enough to house the vaccines and give us ice for the chests and all that sort of thing, so that worked out reasonably well. Drew: Because they were sort of dispersed around the area. Olsen: They were dispersed all over the country. Drew: So it would almost be comparable to like being able to go to a bank that was located near where you were working and get what you needed? Olsen: Near enough that you could keep the vaccines cold and make the ice used when transporting the vaccines to the vaccination sites.. And then come back at another time, when appropriate, and get the vaccines and start all over again. Now, it worked as well as it could. There were also missionaries in areas with refrigeration, and they would allow the vaccines to be stored. It never worked very well trying to transport and use the kerosene operated refrigerators that were provided. We did not use them. Maintenance was a problem. If no one was around, the kerosene was stolen, and if you hired someone it just did not work out well. I remember we had a regional project meeting, in Abidjan I believe. Dr. Foege and the regional staff were interviewing us about our programs. And I mentioned to the group that we had this kind of cold-chain system, and Dr. Foege leaned over to someone and said, "Well, Liberia doesn't need more refrigerators. They need more Lebanese." We had our systematic way of covering the country. We had a public health education unit-not that we organized, that was provided through the Ministry of Health. They assisted us from time to time, with a great deal of our encouragement. They would go ahead to the villages and prepare them for our being in the neighborhoods. They would get the people in a central place so it would be easier for us logistically to maintain the vaccines, get there, and vaccinate. And invariably, the local chief didn't want to go to another chief's area: "Come to my area. I'm the chief." Politics works the same way everywhere. So we had a very difficult time getting people to congregate in large numbers so you could use the Ped-O-Jet most efficiently. But you just had to work with those things. Drew: And at that point in the program, wasn't the approach still to just do mass vaccinations? Olsen: Almost all of the time that I was there, 3 years, it was the mass vaccination approach. Just as I was leaving, the search-and- containment approach was, I think, being at least talked about, if not being implemented in some places. I didn't get involved with that until I went to India for the same purposes. There it was all search and containment. Drew: But you were saying that you did have a fairly systematic way of determining where you would go and what you would do? Olsen: Right, we'd sit down and work with our teams. We had 9 counties, if I remember the count. Some of which bordered Sierra Leone, Guinea, and the Ivory Coast And at that time, a good portion of Liberia hadn't been mapped. It was tropical rainforest. So the teams, knowing their areas, would say, "Well, we know that such-and-such exists out here, so here's how we would cover it." And, of course, we had to rely on them. We couldn't be making these plans on our own. So one team would go out in advance to let the folks know that we were coming and try to do these things I just discussed with you, and then also map out where the villages were for sure. Small villages would move when an area had been farmed out. Drew: Why was that happening? Olsen: Farming. They would just move. If it was a sizable place that would be somewhat stable. If the villages were smaller-fewer huts and so forth, and they were temporary-then the people would go off and go somewhere else. But generally they were stable. We would supply the teams based on the teams' knowledge. I would go and do assessments myself. And if we ever had reports of rashlike illness, Dr. Thompson and or I would go, sometimes with a WHO [World Health Organization] assignee, and investigate. It was harder to get the Liberian senior medical personnel to go. They didn't like to leave Monrovia. Drew: I know in some countries that part of the mode of operating was to deal with the village chief or whoever the leader was. Did you pretty much have that type of introduction into the various developed areas? Olsen: Occasionally, if I went to a bigger place, I might see the paramount chief, or stay with the paramount chief, because there was no housing anywhere else. Quite often the teams would visit with the village elders because we couldn't be with the teams all the time. But, yes, the politics all had to be attended to. You didn't just show up and then say, "This is going to happen." You had to let them know that you were coming and let them make the decision. Then they would get their populations organized and motivate them, to the extent that they chose to do that. But that whole network, with the paramount chief down to the village chief, to then get down to Charley Brown's town, as one of them was called. Drew: Generally, were you fairly well received? Olsen: Always, always. I cannot remember a contentious time, a real problem that we couldn't overcome, working in Liberia in the villages. Now, we had lots of hours of frustration and difficulty at the ministry level because they're being impacted by any number of things. I wouldn't even pretend to know all them. They were responsible for providing the teams, they were responsible for providing the petrol and the monies to support the teams, and it was a constant battle. Whether the resources were limited or whether it was just a lack of priority sometimes, I can't be sure. Drew: And these would be Liberians? Olsen: Liberians. The doctors I've mentioned. Dr. Titus was exceptionally supportive. Dr. Thomas, who was our counterpart, the one I mentioned, he soon went off to get a graduate degree at Harvard. But Dr. Barkley, the Minister of Health, was strictly at the top, a politician, and I have a couple stories about that. I remember going to his office any number of times in a fairly short period, trying to get the chits for the petrol. They wouldn't release money. They would release chits, and we'd give them to the teams so they could give them to the operators of the petrol stations. And Dr. Barkley missed any number of meetings and kept me waiting and waiting and waiting. One day I thought I really had it done. I went to meet with him he didn't show up. I was angry. I left his office and when I got in our truck I slammed the door. And my driver, John Massakoui, a Liberian, started laughing. I said, "John, what is so blankety-blank-blank funny?" We knew each other quite well; we were together all the time. And he said, "Well, Dennis, this is just another one of those times when you learn that you're in Liberia, and here we beat the drums." So, okay. Drew: He probably knew, without your even explaining, more or less what had happened. Olsen: Yes. But it was always a fight for everything. And the team members would come to us, of course, because they couldn't get paid sometimes, and these personnel issues were very, very frustrating. You'd want to go, and you had to go, to the government and say, "You know, the teams aren't being attended to, and they need their salaries," and you wouldn't even get excuses. You would just be, more or less, ignored. It's hard to be that kind of go-between. Drew: Was it because they had their own agendas and their own timetable, or was it a certain amount of control or passive-aggressive kind of thing? They wanted to control the resources? Or they just had different priorities? Olsen: I think they may have had different priorities. I always felt that they wanted to support the project, but who knew what kind of influences were on them to do whatever? And I certainly wouldn't want to be accusing them of anything. We had our guesses sometimes as to how the resources were being distributed, for what purposes. You go through these times and you had to work with them, and I think we did reasonably well. Up until the end, we didn't see any smallpox, and I think our coverage rates for measles were as good as one could expect. That was a much more difficult thing to do. You could assess smallpox because of the vaccination scar. With measles, it was by guess and by gosh. You kept your tallies of the doses of vaccine administered, but that wasn't necessarily a true picture. And then we did see, at the end of my 3 years, a case of probable smallpox. My replacement, Mr. Randy Moser had already come into country, and the teams were up-country. I guess it was Mr. Coleman who came down, and he said, "We've got rash illness in this particular area, and we have taken that lady and her child to the hospital." I said, is she in quarantine?" And he said, "Well, to the extent possible. They may be going home at night. Nobody seems to care too much." So Randy and I jumped on a plane and went up there. The lady was there, in what served as the county hospital, and to us it looked like smallpox. So we took our samples. Got the cases properly contained in the hospital, (paid to get that done), took the samples and got them shipped back to CDC. And then, of course, we sent the teams up to start vaccinating. We thought that we had our first cases of smallpox. Then we got either a cable or a call-probably a cable because the phone system did not work well; we didn't have some of these other things that are very available now-saying that there's something strange happening with this sample, so "Get us some more samples." Dr. Thompson had already left, so it was just Randy and I. And I think the WHO representative, Dr. Hans Mayer, was gone as well. CDC sent another doctor from the smallpox program over, Dr. Pat Imparato and he reviewed what we had been doing, and he said, "Well, you've done pretty much all you can do from a medical standpoint. I've seen that you've sent the samples off." We got more samples. We sent them in. And it turned monkeypox. Drew: Oh, wow! Olsen: The transfer of another virus to humans. Drew: Wow, interesting. Olsen: Monkey was part of the diet. We'd already packed our household effects to return to the states. CDC sent people into Liberia then, searching and taking animal samples, blood samples and things, and it turned out to be monkeypox. There wasn't a widespread outbreak. I think it was actually contained either to just that lady and the child, or maybe 2 or 3 other people. Again, I was gone to the States by this time. But it did cause a lot of people to go in looking for a lot of things because I'm pretty sure we were considering that smallpox no longer existed in Central and West Africa. It was kind of a scary thing, thinking here we'd gone all these years, and now smallpox was cropping up. Drew: You're at the tail end, and all of a sudden you get hit by something like that. Olsen: Yes. And it was also at a time when we had to call the teams off of smallpox vaccination because there had been a cholera outbreak in West Africa. I was over in the offices in Liberia one afternoon. Usually, I was the only person in the office in the afternoon. The whole building emptied out. And Dr. Barkley, the Minister of Health, comes in, and says "There's an unusual event for you." I said, "What can I do to help you?" And he says, "What do you know about cholera?" And I said, "Oh, very, very little. I mean, we have some background information, of course, I've got a lot of books here. But why?" And he said, "Well, tomorrow we're going to start a mass vaccination campaign for cholera." I said, "What?" He said, "Well, President Tubman has been on the phone to President Sekou Toure of Guinea, and they have cholera in Guinea. I said, "Have they notified anyone officially?" He said, "They notified the World Health Organization." I said, "Is there vaccine in the country?" He said, "I don't know. I'm going to Evans Pharmacy to find out." This was kind of a British-run pharmacy in town, a very small operation. He said, "I want you to write a plan for the vaccination coverage." Drew: Surely this was at 3:00 pm on a Friday. That's when most everything seems to happen. Olsen: I don't know if it was Friday or not. But said I can write a plan and base it on our smallpox coverage. Find out who might be most at risk of cholera, knowing full well that cholera vaccine was considered by many people to be essentially worthless. But what about the other things: looking at the source; determining how many and what kind of beds the hospitals had? These kinds of things I had limited knowledge about, and nobody to contact on that particular afternoon to put this plan together. Drew: More like you knew the questions but you didn't know the answers? Olsen: Yes, I didn't know the answers. So I had a formulation of a plan that had to be fleshed out later on, of course. Well, Dr. Barkley went off and he reported back that they had 50 doses of vaccine in the country. I said, "It might not be particularly wise to mount a mass vaccination program since you've got no vaccine." WHO sent in 500 doses of vaccine right away. In any event, we mounted a sort of mass vaccination program. The first thing we had to do was go to the executive mansion and present the program to President Tubman. So I contacted USAID saying, "I've been asked to go, but I'm not representing the United States." So they sent the deputy, Dr. James, from USAID. And on the way up in the elevator to the executive suite, Dr. Barkley punched me in the ribs and said, "You're to present the plan." Well, I knew enough that if I, as an American, presented the plan, it becomes an American plan. Drew: So we met President Tubman. I had not had the pleasure of meeting him previously. He was an elderly gentleman in somewhat failing health, but very gracious. The first thing he did was to serve us all a scotch had. Drew: Single malt? Olsen: I don't remember. He sat us all down, and I was asked then to present the program, and I started by saying that, "At Dr. Barkley's request, and with all of us involved, we-we-"have come up with this" formulation"-not my formulation." And then he looked at Dr. Barkley for funding. Dr. Barkley looked at Dr. James. And President Tubman said, "Well, I will provide $50,000 towards this from the monies that the Congress (Liberian) has allowed for my new boat"-his new cruiser craft or something. "And, Dr. Barkley, you find the rest." Drew: Amazing. Olsen: Yeah. Drew: And, of course, $50,000 was more then than it is now, but still probably not a drop in the bucket in terms of what you need for funding? Olsen: It wasn't enough. So we presented the plan, and the only change that the President had was that the vaccine will not simply go to the areas that we have designated as being high risk. It would be distributed throughout the country so that all paramount chiefs and politicians in the regions would know that they hadn't been forgotten. This was a decision for him to make, not for us to make. Drew: Sure, sure. Olsen: Shortly thereafter, either a day or 2, we had the Radio Broadcasting Company of Liberia announce that the vaccines were there. We showed up one morning, and we had hundreds and hundreds of people outside waiting impatiently. The nurses were all ready, and we had the jet injectors to use. The nurses didn't want to use the jet injectors. They said they could go just as fast with the needles and syringes. And people were clamoring over the window casings. The people were required to get a form that was being run off on an old mimeograph machine. And so people were clamoring up the stairs to get their forms so they could come back and get vaccinated. It was utter chaos! Drew: And you knew that you did have enough doses, or did not have enough doses? Olsen: We never knew if we had enough vaccine. Drew: So you had that tension kind of biting at your heels too. Olsen: Yes. WHO was continuing to support the government and getting vaccine to them as quickly as it could. My only interest then was using the vaccines that we had and getting the people satisfied so that we could calm them down. And trying to reorganize at Mambo Point so that we could get the people mimeographing the forms outside of the vaccination area because the vaccinees having to come and go was just causing total chaos inside. Drew: And, of course, back in those times, it wasn't like you could email CDC and say, "Hey, I need some backup." Olsen: But there were cases of cholera, and it was totally out of my hands in planning the response. Thank goodness I didn't have to do any more with it. But all of the resources that were available and needed to be pressed into shape, including the staff at the hospital and the people who were there helping develop the Kennedy Hospital, they all got involved and had proper kinds of beds and so forth. And I left the country, so . . . Drew: Sounds like a pretty exciting time. Olsen: It was different. I mean, you're barely comfortable with what you've accomplished and organized in the smallpox program and the distribution of vaccines and getting people inoculated for measles and smallpox, then this happens. It was so totally disruptive. And you knew full well the limited resources. It was just going to change everything. And had we had an outbreak of smallpox at that time, I'm not sure what would have happened. Which situation would have taken precedence? Most likely the cholera because it's more of an immediate threat, more people being affected at that point. Drew: It must have been kind of amazing to be sort of on the line. Olsen: It was different. But I got to meet the President. Drew: And you got to speak to him?. Olsen: Yes. I was checking out of USAID when I met this gentleman whom I'd never seen at USAID before. He introduced himself. He said, "I understand that you were in a meeting with the President of Liberia last night ." And I said, "Yes. But I'm leaving 2 days from now." And he said, "Oh, damn, all my sources are leaving the country." Drew: And now a woman is President, correct? Olsen: Mrs. Sirleaf. Drew: Right. Olsen: Harvard educated, and she's got her work cut out for her. I think she's at least got a chance. I mean, the country had so many difficulties to begin with, and then this 8 or 9 years of war. One person described Liberia as "the infrastructure was destroyed and the culture was vaporized," something like that. It was just totally devastating. Young kids running around, apparently drugged up, with big weapons, killing everybody. But I had the good fortune of going back to Liberia before all that broke out. I mean, President Doe had already taken over, and the assassinations at that time had taken place. So I saw Liberia once again, in l980. (We had left in '70.) You couldn't see much in the way of change because there had been so little there to begin with. So you didn't see the infrastructure breaking down, but it apparently was happening. The economy was just going to pot. Although potentially it could have been a reasonably wealthy country with its rubber plantations; iron ore that was very pure; and they had this international free port, and a lot of ships sail with the Liberian flag, so there must have been some sizeable income from that.[ Drew: Did you have any children born over there? . Olsen: No. My wife and I didn't. But the Thompsons, at least one of their children was born there. They had a good medical service there with a mission hospital called ELWA:"Eternal love wins Africa," I think. My wife Carolyn and I say that we went to Africa at the right time. The countries were gaining their independence. There was a great deal of enthusiasm for the future. They were getting to make their own decisions and realize their own successes and failures. Drew: And I'll bet corruption hadn't gotten quite as much of a toehold at that point maybe. Olsen: You know, it's easy to see corruption in a smaller setting than it is in a big country like this one, so you could see it happening. There was a give-and-take there. I remember Dr. Titus commenting to me once: "The way the system works here, Dennis, is that the President allows everybody to take a little bit. But if you take too much or it gets reported to him that you're getting too much, then you are going to be jailed." And people were . . . Drew: So it's kind of like this unwritten system. Olsen: Yeah. But we enjoyed our time there. We think very highly of the Liberians. And given the opportunity in a different kind of situation, with what's going on there now, we'd do it all over again if it were possible. And it enthused us so much that we've always had an interest in international work and travel. I was fortunate enough to continue my international work in Africa and Asia. And nowadays we just pick up and travel 3 months out of the year to see the world. Drew: That's great. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310167954%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-VrOTt&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158xx emory:158xx Subject The topic of the resource USAID Operations Officer Smallpox Eradication CDC WHO Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 563522736 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Drew, Diane (Interviewer); CDC; Nurse Olsen, Dennis (Interviewee); CDC; Operations Officer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Centers for Disease Control Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Title A name given to the resource OLSEN, DENNIS Description An account of the resource Dennis Olsen was working for CDC when the opportunity arose to join the Smallpox Eradication Program in West Africa in Liberia as an Operations Officer. David speaks of arriving in Liberia and starting up the smallpox and measles vaccination effort there - even storing the vaccines in the freezers of a local fishing company or refrigerators of local Lebanese merchants. Dennis reflects on the politics of vaccination in the villages and with government officials, coping with a cholera outbreak, and a case of monkeypox. Dennis went on to have a 32-year career with CDC. Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/aa014cc376a6743520bc655a55678f97.jpg f7d78b88df4e468df04a13d6b5b8f263 https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/eefbb5477fb0a7a8101ccc3f448db3cd.pdf d83cb137dc3e902b249d2bb2db5c5e56 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Betty Roy on July 13, 2006, at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, about her involvement with the West African Smallpox Eradication Project. The interview is being conducted as a part of the reunion marking the 40th anniversary of the launch of the program. The interviewer is Diane Drew. Drew: Would you mind telling me a little bit about your background, schooling, where you grew up, that kind of thing? Roy: Okay. I'm from the Midwest, from the Chicago area. I spent all of my childhood in that area. My father was a dentist. We were in, at the time, a small suburb of Chicago, Mount Prospect, Illinois, and he was one of the first 2 dentists in the town. Now, I don't even care to guess how many might be in that area. I did all of my elementary and high schooling in Mount Prospect, and then went on to my first year of university. I was in music at the time and went down to DePauw University in Greencastle, Indiana. And as is true of many young people, you sort of have a change of interest, a change of liking for the university, and I found DePauw and Greencastle maybe a little bit too small. I had done some studying with professors at Northwestern, so I transferred up to Northwestern, and I finished my studies there. Drew: In music? Roy: No, I transferred out of music 1 quarter after being there and went into the College of Liberal Arts and decided to major in French. So I did my studies in French and had to do a catch-up because I lost some credits. So I had quite a heavy schedule for the rest of my 3 years at Northwestern. I finished up at Northwestern, and I was not in education. I didn't have much interest in teaching, which in some ways I think was probably a mistake because I think I should have done that. But I went off to Washington, D.C., and worked-I guess I can tell you-I worked for the CIA. Drew: Oh, that's okay. Now you'll have to shoot me. Roy: It's been quite a number of years. But I worked in D.C. for a year and then went abroad to Dahomey with the "State Department." (I'll put that in quotations.) Dahomey is now, of course, Benin. I worked in the embassy there and had a 2-year contract. And it was in Dahomey that I met a certain young man called Jean or Jeannel Roy, who was working there with the Smallpox Eradication Program. Drew: So your courtship must have been primarily in Cotonou, the capital of Dahomey? Roy: Correct. I didn't meet Jean right away. He was actually in Frankfurt when I arrived, but he was working in Dahomey. But people said, "Oh, you must meet this young man." I said, "Okay." It was a small post, so you tended to eventually meet everybody. Jean was responsible for Dahomey. I arrived in late '68, actually around December of '68. Jean was already there; I think he arrived in '66. Drew: Now, what's dating like in Dahomey? Roy: Well, I don't want to get too much involved. Drew: Oh, no, no, no. Roy: Well, as I said, Cotonou, the embassy, and the whole community are very small, and being a French-speaking country, a lot of French expatriates were living there. In the American community, the embassy was very small, so you met everybody. So dating, okay. I had some overlap with my predecessor at the embassy, and she said, "Oh, you need to meet Jean Roy. He's a fantastic man," and da-da-da-da. So he was gone 3 weeks. But I guess when he came back, he had seen me at the cinema with some French people, and he said, in the back of his mind, "Oh, she must not be so bad if she's in the cinema watching French films with French people. Obviously, she's out trying to meet people outside the American community." Drew: Don't let me make you feel like I'm like probing, but it's fascinating, really, to think in terms of a young woman away from the country, kind of becoming used to that. It really sounds like the makings of a novel. Roy: There were not a lot of people, you know. It's not like you go to a local bar or something and meet people, or through education courses or something.So we eventually met up at a New Year's Eve party through somebody who was with USIS [United States Information Service] and sort of started going out. He had a horse and asked me, "Do you ride?" and I said, "Oh, yes." And he said, "You want to go riding?" and I said, "Sure." So he came by the next day. And he had a group of French friends who he used to ride almost every day with, and so I got involved with that. So we used to horseback ride a lot, and then we used to go to the beach a lot. And then I used to be able to go on trips with him for his work. Drew: This must have been your first exposure to public health. Of course, your father was a dentist, so you would have been a little bit on the periphery of health-related stuff. Roy: Yes. But as far as smallpox, the only thing I knew about smallpox was that I had my vaccination. Drew: Did you feel like gradually you could get to know more about the world of public health? Roy: Yes, definitely. Drew: And there were others there working with him, I assume? Roy: Well, Jean basically set up his own office. He worked under the supervision of Dr. Challenor [Bernard Challenor], who unfortunately has since died. But Bernie was based in Togo, in Lomé. But he would come to Dahomey and Togo. So I didn't get to know Bernie that well, only more so when we eventually went back to the States. But Jean worked under him, though basically Jean was his own boss. He worked with the Dahomeyans. And different people would come through: Rafe Henderson [Ralph H. Henderson] would come by and do certain surveillance activities; and then other people from Lagos came through. I think Bernie stayed with him a while. So I met a lot of the people as they were going through and staying with Jean. Drew: And I imagine over time, I know how it can be around public health people, or anybody who specializes. There's all this kind of inside talk. You probably . . . Roy: Well, that's what I said. I've never worked with smallpox, but I always say I learned about all this through osmosis, you know. Drew: You were fluent in French, but you probably weren't fluent in public health stuff. Roy: Yes. But it was incredible just to hear them talk, and especially when Rafe was there with Ilze [Ilze Henderson]. They spent, I don't know how long doing search and containment, what Rafe called "search and destroy." They had a team of 12 young individuals with motorbikes, and they were going out to search, say, for smallpox and destroy it. So it was a certain tactic, and it was considered the best way to curtail smallpox. I was able to go out on several trips with Jean when they were going up into the villages and looking for smallpox. And I went from village to village with him, from hut to hut. And I'll have to say that if I went around to CDC today, I'd ask how many people have seen smallpox. I mean, you see these children just covered with all the pustules, some inside as well as the outside. And then the miraculous recovery of those who did survive. But, obviously, so many died. Drew: So tell me a little bit, if you would, about living conditions, what it was like living there, what the weather was like. Roy: Well, West Africa if you're along the coast is very much like Atlanta, maybe even more so. I mean, it's hot and humid. You really didn't walk a lot. We didn't. We went horseback riding, which was great exercise. But we'd be just drenched. It was just typical tropical weather. Drew: Did activities tend to slow down around the middle of the day, to avoid the hottest part of the day? Roy: No. I was in the embassy environment, and I just think we all sort of worked the American work ethic, which meant taking their 4-hour lunches. But, no, we probably had an hour and a half. But we'd go out to the beach at lunchtime. It was just a couple of blocks away. Cotonou was right on the coast. Drew: Was it very scenic? What was the area like? Roy: Typical palm trees. People used to come up from Lagos because it was a French colony, and the food was very good. I was really exposed to wonderful French food. But I would have to say it was a hardship that you had to worry about the water. You had to worry about eating anything raw in the way of vegetables and fruits, unless it was peeled, or else you wanted to put it in a bleach mixture. So you had to be very careful. You had to worry about malaria. At that time we were able to take chloroquine, and the mosquito was not resistant to that. So healthwise, you had to be careful. But I never had any problems. Drew: It must have been kind of an adventure, really. Roy: Yes. But you were briefed on all this before you went. You were aware of what you should and should not do. Drew: And I'll bet that was reinforced by the people around you, too. Roy: Oh, yes. You know, you had to worry about amebic dysentery. And I remember 1 man had come down with amebiasis, and that was the last thing you ever wanted to get was amoebas. And the ambassador's secretary eventually died of hepatitis because she had not taken her gamma globulin at the time. So you knew the risks. But I guess being young, I didn't really worry about it. I did what I needed to do. But it didn't prevent me from going off to Africa. My mother never blinked an eye. "Okay, going off to Africa." Drew: Did you have siblings when you were going off? Roy: I had a sister and a brother. I'm the youngest. Drew: So your parents were completely supportive? Roy: Well, my father had died when I was in high school, so it was my mother. I think my mother sort of rolled with the punches when she came to me. I think I always had a few surprises for her, but she was so easy going. She's since died, but, yes, for her, any time we moved, my mother would always say, "Oh, I haven't been to that place." Drew: Would she come and visit? Roy: Oh, yes. She came to Dahomey with a friend of hers. It was marvelous because we stayed in Cotonou for some time. Then Jean had work up in the northern part of the country. And my mother and her friend took the train because Jean thought maybe it wouldn't be as comfortable in the truck, but we did take the truck back. Drew: Are these the famous Dodge trucks? Roy: Yes, yes, yes. Drew: My understanding is that a lot of people became expert at repairing them or whatever. Roy: Oh, yes. Jean had to learn how to do maintenance on the trucks. That was part of the training before they went over. So my mom and her friend came over, and we had a chance to go up-country, while Jean was doing work. We didn't see any smallpox at that time; I think this was further along when the number of cases was greatly diminishing. So she was able to visit different villages while the team was looking for cases. Drew: That's pretty amazing. Roy: The villagers would look at this woman whose hair was, you know, the fashion when you had gray hair with a tint of blue? Bluish hair- they weren't quite sure about that. And you asked me about weather, and what the town was like. It was a lovely little town. They had wonderful local markets, which all of West Africa has, very colorful. And we used to go there to collect lots of African cloth. I have trunkfuls of African cloth. Drew: Do you sew? Roy: I used to. Used to make ties. I used to make dresses. Drew: People would kind of know what they were going to get for Christmas. . . Roy: And a lot of African beads. So the market was something. That was a nice distraction. And the restaurants. We had 1 wonderful restaurant on the coast. Drew; Was it primarily French cuisine? Roy: Oh, yes. It was called Patty Snack. When Rafe and Ilze used to come to town, we'd go to the restaurant. They had wonderful frogs' legs, and so we'd all order frogs' legs. Later, the waiter would come and ask, "Well, would you like anything further, maybe dessert, coffee?" And Rafe and Ilze would say, "Another order of frogs' legs." I'll never forget that. It was the best food. We'd have a full meal and maybe, I don't even know if they had, with the equivalent of a dollar. Drew: Oh, amazing. Roy: It was superb, superb. And the Dahomeyans were just very, very nice people. I had a houseboy, which most people did, at first, but I was not used to having. We inherited him from my predecessor. I had him for a while, and I felt a little guilty when I said I didn't need him anymore, but I was usually not there lunchtime because we'd go off to the beach, and at night I was probably at Jean's, and he did have somebody to help him. So I said, "Albert, you're better off finding a position elsewhere." That was really my first experience having somebody cook for me and clean for me, and to this day I'm not really keen on having somebody underfoot. Drew: I could see where that would be kind of odd. Roy: If I have a special dinner, sometimes in Geneva, they'll have somebody come in and help clean up and serve and things like that. Drew: How long were you there before the 2 of you got married? Roy: Not real long. I initially had a 2-year contract. I was just finishing up my first year by the end of '69, when Jean was scheduled to come back to the States, about October. So I said, "Well, what's going to happen?" Drew: Sort of, "What's your agenda?" Roy: "What is your agenda?" I had to tell my boss if I'm going to continue for another year. With the State Department, if you go before your first year is up, you have to reimburse the government for sending you out there. Drew: That would be a lot of motivation to not go. Roy: So I said, "I'm going to stay my year, but I want to know, am I going to continue here with my career, or what?" So he said, "Well, okay. We'll get married." And he was old enough. Jean was like 29 at the time, time to settle down and get married. Drew: And how old were you at that point, about, 24, 25? Roy: I was 24. Drew: And did you come back to the States? Roy: We thought about getting married there. We had a wonderful ambassador, Ambassador Lorem, who gave us a wonderful engagement party. His wife is a former Rothschild, so we had lovely Duchene champagne, and I don't think I've had any since then. We invited as many people as we wanted. It was very special, very special. So, with all the bureaucracy that was involved in trying to get married, we decided no, we'd get married in the States. And we decided we'd marry in my hometown, Mount Prospect, and that happened in January 1970. So I did break my contract. And, of course, I didn't have to reimburse the government for sending me over there because I'd already been there a year, but I had to pay my way back, and I didn't have it covered. Drew: Where did you live? Roy: We came back to Atlanta. We were here in 1970-1971. Jean worked here in Atlanta on smallpox surveillance. He covered Nigeria, Ghana, Togo, that portion of West Africa, working for Bob Hogan [Robert C. Hogan]. Drew: But basically he was based here at headquarters and then made regular trips? Roy: Yes Drew: And was that your first experience in living in Atlanta? Roy: Yes. Drew: How did you like Atlanta? A little bit of an adjustment maybe? Roy: I basically said I don't know whether I want to come back here to live after we left Africa. Yes, it was very different. It wouldn't have been my first choice. It was very different back then, when you think of the way it is now. Oh, my goodness. You could count on 1 hand the number of ethnic restaurants in the city. In our wedding, we had a young man who was in the Peace Corps with Jean. (Jean was in the Peace Corps in Cameroon for 2 years.) His name was Freeman, and he was a black American. He was in our wedding in the Midwest. And I'm prefacing this because he came and visited us here-he lived in Atlanta, actually. But he'd come to visit us. We had some neighbors who weren't very appreciative of our having this friend of another color. So you knew those sort of thoughts maybe were held up north, but somehow they didn't say it to your face. So it was a little bit uncomfortable. So I guess through choice, I didn't work here. I said, "Well, maybe I should have pursued a career more." I sort of left it. Maybe back in that time, I thought, okay, I'm married now, and you start raising a family at some point. Drew: But that was much more common then. And I think women didn't feel like they had to justify that. It was just kind of the expectation for many. Roy: I had friends in school who obviously have gone on with careers. But we didn't know how long Jean would be here. We were hoping maybe to go back overseas again. Drew: Were you able to travel back with him at all? Roy: Yes. After the first 6 months, he had to go back to Equatorial Guinea, I think, for work. I went back to Dahomey and visited our good French friends and stayed with them. And then we met up in Paris when Jean was finished. So, we were in Atlanta from 1970 to 1971, as I said, working on smallpox surveillance. Then we went to Dakar, Senegal, for a year. Again, it was regional surveillance of smallpox because now smallpox had basically been eradicated from West Africa, and they needed to continue to survey, make certain that cases didn't pop up. But also at that same time, we were working very closely with measles because the ministries of health had told CDC measles was a priority. Drew: Yes. That was kind of part of the deal, wasn't it? Roy: Right. And at that point, because smallpox cases had almost completely disappeared, measles was becoming the bigger killer of children, so the emphasis was on measles along with the surveillance. So we were in Dakar for a year. Dakar is wonderful, just wonderful. The climate is wonderful, only hot maybe in September and October. Otherwise, you always have the trade winds. Beautiful temperatures during the day, and then the night was actually cool. You needed a light wrap at night. So we enjoyed that. Only a year, unfortunately, because the monies just sort of tended to dry up. Drew: Was the funding coming primarily from CDC or from WHO [World Health Organization] or . . . Roy: It was through the US government-to CDC through USAID [US Agency for International Development]. And when administrations changed, the funding would get bigger or smaller-depending on who was in office. So Jean came back to the States, and that's when he started working with the immunization program for CDC. So we went to Albany, New York, where he worked on immunization for the state health department. At CDC, you're assigned to New York to work with the state epidemiologist with the state health department. I was pregnant then. I had gotten pregnant in Senegal. We knew we were leaving Senegal. When we went to Albany, I was probably about 5 months' pregnant. And we had to find a place to live. We had rented an apartment and a car. Finally we found a house, but we couldn't move into it until February 1. Jonathan was due in January. So I went home to mother in the Chicago area. Jean stayed in Albany. We gave up the apartment; he rented a room. And then, when Jonathan was born several weeks later, we came back and we moved into our house. We were in Albany for 3 years. And Jean worked, as I said, with the immunization program. We got to meet and work with Al Hinman [Alan Hinman], who at that time was, I think, New York State epidemiologist. And then we went to Puerto Rico. So we're going away from smallpox, but all of Jean's work with smallpox had been in his relationship with CDC, but to his taking on a position with CDC and then continuing his career until 1998. And in those interim years, I won't go into detail, but we lived in Puerto Rico for 3 years, and we went to Olympia, Washington, for 4 years, where he worked, again, for the immunization program. Eventually he also worked with Oregon, where he helped develop the school laws that required children to have immunizations before they get into the schools. They didn't have those laws then. We lived in Olympia for 4 years. Then we got back into international health and moved to Zaire, Kinshasa, for 4 years, where he worked with the CCCD [Combating Childhood Communicable Diseases] program. And 4 years there. Then we came to Atlanta in '86, and that was our longest stay anywhere, 12 years. Jean was working with CCCD in the International Health Program Office (IHPO). Drew: What part of Atlanta did you live in? Roy: Northeast Atlanta. We still have that home. Then in '98, Jean retired, and we immediately, a couple of months later, went to Geneva, where we are now. He was a consultant to, but now is an employee of the American Red Cross assigned to the International Federation of the Red Cross, working with malaria in Africa. Jean's involvement with smallpox came about from being in the Peace Corps; he did 2 years of Peace Corps in Cameroon. Then he went on to Columbia University Teachers College. Drew: So when he was in Cameroon, he was not a physician? Roy: No, no. And he is not a physician. He's a public health advisor. And at the time he was doing his work in Columbia, he was going to go off to Africa anyway, but he found out about the smallpox program. CDC was looking for people with Africa experience and people who had French for the francophone countries. At that time, he was also possibly having a 1A status for Vietnam. So through various connections, he was able to come on board at CDC with the smallpox program as a commissioned officer, even though he's not a physician. He was able to do his military service that way. Roy: Yeah. He and Mark LaPointe have very similar career paths. Drew: Yes. In fact, I think I'm interviewing him tomorrow. So they must be folks that you know, too. Roy: And Mark's from Maine and my husband's from Maine. Oh, yes, we know Mark and Diane. So, in a nutshell, that's a little bit of what our life has been. Drew: It really sounds wonderful. Roy: I'll have to say-isn't this terrible to say?-that because of smallpox, I guess I've had a very exciting life. Drew Well, but it's interesting because I think it sounds really exciting, but I'll bet it made a lot of demands on both of you in terms of just adapting to different cultures. I would think you'd have to be a fairly flexible person. Roy: Yes. But, again, because I wasn't, obviously, a career person, I didn't have this huge career that I was starting to keep. But when you've been married 36 years, you're always going to have your highs and lows. And when you're in a foreign country, that might put more demands on it. But then, on the other hand, I think we've had so much wonderful advantages as far as making friends from different parts of the world and traveling. Drew: Really a great life. Roy: Yes, oh, definitely. Drew: And I'll bet you both have friends that you wind up interacting with who you've known in different parts of the world? Roy: Oh, sure. We have these friends, in fact, that we've known since before we were married. They live in France. We haven't seen them in a while, but we've kept up those relationships, from Puerto Rico, from Africa. Drew: Can you think of any particular challenges or problems that either of you encountered in terms of living in Africa? Roy: Well, I guess, as I said before, the health issues. I mean, if you did come down with something, in Cotonou, we didn't have a doctor at the embassy. The medical services for that area came out of Lagos. You just hoped you never had to have any medical problem there. Did I want to go to a local doctor? I mean, the French doctors were fine. But, for me, I was still very young and I thought, ew. So that was always a little bit of a concern. Drew: Sounds like you were pretty healthy, though. Roy: Yes, but sometimes you'd have some typical female problems, you know. Do I really need to go? Do I really need to see him? Eventually I broke down. Yes, I need to see him. In Senegal, I had an incident. I was going to the beach with somebody, and this young Senegalese came up. He had a crutch, and he sat next to us. Normally, I never brought anything of any value with me to the beach. But I had a bag with my car keys in it. This man was sitting next to us, and all of a sudden he grabbed my bag. And I thought, "Oh," so I grabbed his crutch. So he didn't get very far with my bag. I think today, in this day and age, the way things are, maybe I'd think twice about living here because of the situation with AIDS and everything. What if you were in an automobile accident or something and needed a blood transfusion? I think now probably many people take their own blood with them. But those are concerns that one might have today. And the fact that malaria is so resistant to medications that one takes... When my son was born, we lived in Zaire. He went with us when we went back to Zaire, when he was about 10. And we spent 4 years there. So for him, those were very formitive years, the middle-school years. And he still has a lot of his impressions from that time. So that's left very much of a stamp on his life. To this day, he loves to travel and spent time in Abu Dhabi for some work, spent time in St. Petersburg for some work, and was never quite domesticated. Drew: And when you were in Zaire, what program were you with? Roy: The CCCD. Which was great. We made some great friends in Zaire, and we were there during the good times. We were there from '82 to '86. And security difficulties started happening but we had very positive experiences. We belonged to a riding club there. We did a lot of horseback riding. And I used to be involved with the international women's club there and was president for several years. I was on the school board, the American school in Kinshasa, for 3 years. So I was very busy. Drew: Can you describe the school? Roy: The American school in Kinshasa was set up by missionaries years and years and years ago. It followed an American curriculum. It was quite good. Jonathan was there basically his 5th, 6th, and 7th Drew: And then you came back to Atlanta? Roy: And then we came back, and he started high school. That was a little bit hard for him, I think. Drew: That's what I was kind of wondering. Roy: Yes. Well, when he started school as a youngster, he'd gone to Montessori. So when we had moved to Washington state, and he was already reading, I thought, "And we're going to put him into kindergarten?" So he was tested and he went into first grade at age 5. But I think it was fine. Whether it was a mistake, who knows? Drew: You just do what you think is best. Roy: Yes. So he went into Lakeside High School at age 14. I think he had a little bit of a hard time adjusting, and he was bored, very, very bored. He couldn't get into certain programs. He's very good in music. He plays the piano, the violin, and the saxophone. But when he wanted to get into music, he couldn't do music. And he couldn't do art because it wouldn't be in his schedule. I was disappointed in the school. The bottom line is, he went there his first year and then we put him in private school, so he graduated from there. Drew: If you can kind of reflect back, did you or Jean have any opinions about things that might have worked better with the smallpox program, or do you think it worked pretty well? Roy: I had the sense that it was very successful. Drew: And that there were enough resources? Roy: Oh, I mean, I'm basically probably just parroting what Jean would say, you know, that they had a budget to work with. Drew: Sure. Roy: This was like $35 million or something, which is nothing today. And they succeeded in their goals in less amount of time than was anticipated, and under budget. So I think . . . Drew: That spells success to me. Roy: Yes, yes. And I think it developed a whole strategy of combating disease. And I think that has carried over into polio eradication, measles, and malaria. AIDS is another issue. Drew: It presents such unique challenges. Roy: But my impressions-obviously, this is not from being involved personally-is that it was terribly successful. I think you had a group of individuals who were so special and dedicated. Drew: It does sound like it. It really sounds like a bunch of really terrific folks. Roy: Yes. Do they exist today? I don't know. I don't know. You still have young, dedicated doctors. But, yes, they were a group of people who really had a goal. And smart. You had the Foeges and the Hendersons. Drew: That's a pretty amazing combination. Roy: Yes, yes. And then, later on, in '71, when we'd been living in Albany, New York, Jean went to Bangladesh for 3 months to work with smallpox eradication because they had the last few vestiges in Bangladesh, India, and probably still in Ethiopia or Somalia. And Bill Foege [William H. Foege] was there. And I remember, after Jean did his 3 months in Bangladesh, I, along with my mother, because we traveled and met Jean in Delhi, had dinner with Foege and his wife, Paula, who was so nice, so memorable. But the experience Jean had in Bangladesh was quite interesting. It was hard on him. It was difficult. Drew: Difficult living? Roy: Yeah, yeah. Drew: I wanted to give you a chance to kind of add anything.... Roy: Oh, just a little anecdote. When we were in Cotonou, Jean had a trip to Lagos for a meeting. This was a May '69 meeting with WHO [the World Health Organization] and CDC. It was quite an important meeting. Jean says, "Oh, do you want to come along and meet some of the other people?" And so I went with him. Unfortunately, this was the time of the Biafran war. The distance between Cotonou and Lagos is not great; if you look on a map, it's a short distance. But due to the roads and the barricades that you encountered once you were into Nigeria, what should take an hour took 4 hours because they'd stop you every 10 kilometers. And the reason they were doing this was that shortly before we went on this trip to Lagos, there had been a bombing by Biafran supporters, people from Biafra, in a USAID vehicle. They'd somehow commandeered a vehicle or else they'd taken a similar vehicle and made it look like a USAID vehicle, with the symbol of the helping hand. So that's the kind of vehicle we were in. It was the Dodge truck, but it had the USAID helping-hand symbol. And so they were always heavily scrutinizing this vehicle at each barricade. They'd open up the back. And they were young soldiers with these machine guns. It was scarey, so many of them. We were with some other people in the vehicle, including Chris D'Amanda [Christopher D'Amanda]. Now, Jean had done this many times, going back and forth, so he was fairly used to it-I won't say blasé, but, you know. But for us, it was the first time. Jean says, "Don't worry, don't worry." We'd stop and he'd say, "Look at this, look at this." Well, at the 4th or 5th barricade, a young soldier looked in and closed the trunk, and then we go on to the next barricade. But when we get to the next barricade, and they're taking us aside the truck, they discover that the soldier, when he examined our truck at the last barricade, had taken his gun off and he put it in the trunk. Drew: On purpose? Roy: No. He just forgot it. Drew: Oh, he forgot it. Oh, my lord. Roy: So we get to the next stop, and it was discovered. Drew: And you didn't even know what you had. Roy: And, obviously, the young man reported that he missed his gun, and it was just horrendous, just awful. It all worked out, but, you know. And then we were in Lagos that night, and during the day the streets were going in 1 direction, and at night, unbeknownst to us, all of a sudden they changed direction. And there was a blackout period. So you were just going by the headlights. So we're going down this street, and all of a sudden a soldier jumps out in front of us and points his machine gun right at us because we were going the wrong way on the street. Drew: A bit of an introduction. Roy: A little excitement. So, I don't know if I have any other notes on smallpox. I think we've covered everything. Drew: Great. Well, I really appreciate talking with you, and you've done a great job. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310169071%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-7YTvA&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/158z2 emory:158z2 Subject The topic of the resource USAID WHO CDC Smallpox Eradication Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 507255840 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Drew, Diane (Interviewer); CDC; Nurse Roy, Betty (Interviewee); CDC; Wife of Operations Officer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Centers for Disease Control Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Title A name given to the resource ROY, BETTY Description An account of the resource Betty Roy relates how she met Jean Roy (Operations Officer in Dahomey) while she was working abroad for the State Department in Dahomey (Benin) and became introduced to the work of public health and the Smallpox Eradication Program. Betty tells of Jean's work in smallpox surveillance and living in Atlanta and Dakar, Senegal and Jean's career working in immunization programs for CDC until 1998 when they moved to Geneva, where Jean now works for the International Federation of the Red Cross on malaria in Africa. Betty reflects, "I'll have to say...that because of smallpox, I guess I've had a very exciting life." Language A language of the resource English https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/c94ee16f0fe062dc2da1379e349d96b8.jpg f7d78b88df4e468df04a13d6b5b8f263 https://www.globalhealthchronicles.org/files/original/6694d28bb4c79519c6abba7901ef5ee7.pdf 7147e664c0423651fb3e8a269569a621 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smallpox Description An account of the resource <div class="landing"> <p>Smallpox disease was declared eradicated in 1980, the result of a collaborative global campaign. To date, it is the only disease affecting humans to be eradicated from the world. Global eradication of smallpox ranks among the great achievements of humankind. Gone, through determined human effort, is a disease which has brought death to millions, frequently altering the course of history, and traveling through the centuries to every part of the world.  </p> <p>The vital contributions made by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are highlighted. Official government correspondence, meeting transcripts, policy statements, surveillance reports and mortality statistics tell a part of that story. Adding depth to these traditional archives are the personal stories of the public health pioneers who worked tirelessly on the frontlines of the smallpox eradication campaign.</p> <p>The links above connect you to a database of oral histories, photographs, documents, and other media.</p> <p>Use of this information is free, but please see <strong>“About this Site”</strong> for guidance on how to acknowledge the sources of the information used</p> </div> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound. <pre><strong> Interview Transcript </strong> This is an interview with Joan Thompson about her activities in the West Africa Smallpox Eradication Program. The interview is being conducted at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, on July 14, 2006. This is during the 40th anniversary celebration of the launching of the Smallpox Eradication Program. The interviewer is Linda Harrar. Harrar: Would you describe your early life, where you were born and your education through high school and college? Thompson: I was born in North Dakota, in a small town. My father was an educator, and so I actually lived in 3 different small towns in North Dakota, but I spent most of my time in a town of about 600 from age 8 through high school. Harrar: And so you went to high school in North Dakota. Thompson: I went to high school in Portland, North Dakota. Harrar: I understand that you're married to Dr. David Thompson. Thompson: Right. Harrar: So how did the 2of you get involved in the smallpox program? Thompson: Well, we were interested in working overseas, both of us, before we even met and were married. When he was doing his internship, he applied to the Public Health Service; he was thinking about maybe working on a reservation in preparation for going overseas. It was during the Vietnam War, and there were no positions available. Then we applied to the Peace Corps, and there was nothing there. And David said, "Well, I guess I'll be going to Vietnam." But he didn't want to go to there, and even more than that, we were looking already at going overseas and thought that would be a good thing. And then totally out of the blue, he got a telegram one day that read, "Are you interested in going to Africa?" And we didn't know what it was for, not anything. He just responded, "Yes." And then he got a phone call, and D. A. Henderson [Donald A. Henderson] came to Minneapolis to interview us. There were, I think, 3 spots left to fill, and D. A. was interviewing I don't remember how many people. Dave was just finishing his internship, and we were extremely happy when we were accepted. Harrar: Who sent the telegram? Thompson: It must have been somebody in the Public Health Service. I can't remember. I just remember he came home from work and he said, "You'll never believe what I got today." Harrar: Wow, amazing. Thompson: So it was a very amazing story of how we ended up in this program. And it really changed our whole lives. Harrar: Oh, I bet. Where were you living at the time that you were accepted? Thompson: Indianapolis. Harrar: And so you get the telegram and you have the interview, and then he's told, "You've got the position." What next? Thompson: He was in the internship that finished the end of June. Training down here in Atlanta started the beginning of July, so there wasn't much time. We just made plans to go. We were very excited. Our families were excited for us. Harrar: Did you have children at the time? Thompson: We had one very young son, newborn practically. He was 6 months when we came to Atlanta for training. Harrar: So when you were in Africa, where were you stationed? Thompson: Initially we were in eastern Nigeria. We flew into Lagos, and there was some training there. Probably one of my vivid memories is of when we were staying in an apartment. Dave was off from early in the morning till probably 5 in the afternoon. I don't remember exactly, but all day. And I was really sick. I got traveler's diarrhea. Our baby was about 8 or 9 months old by then. I just remember lying on the floor in that apartment and closing all the doors so he couldn't get into anything, just thinking, how am I going to survive? And Dave felt like he couldn't stay home. He had to be at this training. That was my introduction. Fortunately, I had been in Africa once before, so it wasn't like totally new. Harrar: So Dave went out every day. So tell me, other than being sick when you got there, what did you do every day? How did you spend your time? Thompson: Well, I was sick for 3 or 4 days, and then I would just take the baby and go out walking. It was hard to find time to fill the days, during those early days. Harrar: So you were living in a small apartment. Is that where you stayed the entire time? Thompson: No. We were just there a matter of days. And then we went to Enugu in eastern Nigeria. Harrar: And you were there for how long? Thompson: We were there for about 8 months. I can't remember if we arrived there in September or October. We were evacuated at the end of June. And when we arrived at that airfield and got off the plane, the airfield was ringed with men with machine guns that were just trained on us like this as we walked in. And that was kind of an unnerving feeling. Harrar: I can imagine. So, is this at the time before the Biafran War? Thompson: Before. But they already had the guns and things, the security. There was a lot of unrest. There was a lot of fighting in the north, and people were being sent back on trains to the east and being pulled off and killed. Harrar: So, were you there when the war broke out? Thompson: We were there. We have pictures of that Independence Day parade where they declared independence, and then the women and children were all evacuated. Harrar: Including yourself? Thompson: Yes. Harrar: And what was that like? Thompson: Oh, that was a nightmare. We knew it might be coming. They'd told us that there was a possibility, and I think we had 2 days' notice. We were allowed to take one carry-on, and I packed all our pictures and a couple changes of clothes for our son, who by then was a year and a half. And I was 8 months' pregnant. And we drove to Port Harcourt and loaded the plane. I mean loaded it. Every woman had a child on her lap. There were not enough seats for every person. We were flown to Lagos. And there we waited. We had thought that we would be flying out immediately, but it was during the Six-Day War in Israel, and planes were all being diverted over there, so we had to wait for a plane. We stayed with a family in the smallpox program in Lagos. They were incredibly good to us. And then one night maybe 9, 10 o'clock, came word that a plane was on its way, and we went to the airport. We were all women with kids, and we were in the airport all night waiting for this plane. And early in the morning, the plane arrived. And thank and food goodness for Bill Shoemaker [William Shoemaker]. He carried water and food around all night. I don't know if I would have made it otherwise. We got on the plane, and we flew to Monrovia for refueling. We were not allowed to disembark. On this plane, I think everybody had a seat. But we'd had nothing to eat. When we left Monrovia, we sat on the airstrip there for what seemed like 2 or 3 hours, but my memory might not be right. When we got in the air again, they announced that because the pilot would now have too many hours to fly to New York, we would be diverted to Puerto Rico. So we flew to Puerto Rico, and because it was a US port of entry, we all had to disembark and go through customs. Here we were. I'm pregnant; I'm carrying my son, carrying a suitcase, and I remember the guy says, "Put it up there. I want to look at it. "And I was so tired, and I said, "If you want to look at it, you have to put it up there." And then we loaded the plane again and flew to New York. We got into New York about midnight. By now it was about 23 hours' travel time, and we were just dead. Things at the airport were closed as far as booking oncoming, ongoing flights. So somebody met us, and they took us all to a hotel. When we got to the hotel, they had been told that there were refugees coming, and they had to put at least 2 families to a room. And I said, "You know, I'm not going to do that. I know that USAID [US Agency for International Development] is going to pay you for a room for every single person, and I want my own room," which I got. But then, in the morning, we got up and went back to the airport. We spent most of the day in the airport because we had to go there to make our ongoing reservations, and we finally got into Minneapolis the next night. It was an experience I wouldn't want to repeat. Harrar: So from the time you boarded the first plane, when you were evacuated, until the time you arrived. . . Thompson: In New York, it was 23 hours. Harrar: Twenty-three hours. No food, and with a baby. And 8 months' pregnant. Thompson: Yes. Harrar: Amazing. Thompson: I mean, there were other people who had 2 or 3 children, you know, maybe an infant or a toddler. Harrar: So where was your husband during this time? Thompson: The men were not evacuated. They stayed behind. They stayed in Enugu, and then they eventually went to a meeting. I don't even remember where it was; it might even have been out of Nigeria. And when they came back, they did not let them go back to Enugu. But Dave didn't come back to the States until August. He got back a week before our daughter was born. Harrar: So, how long were you actually there in Africa, the 2 of you? Thompson: Well, we were in Enugu 8 months, and then we came back here and we were down here at CDC from August to January, and then we went to Liberia. Harrar: Okay. Thompson: And then we were in Liberia for 2-1/2 years. Harrar: Other than the stories that you just told me about war breaking out and everything, were there any other unique occurrences that you could tell me about that you went through, either then or when you went back to Liberia. Thompson: Well, there were a lot of experiences. Of course, we were in Liberia much longer. There was a women's medical auxiliary, which I was part of, and that was Nigerian expats, so that was a great experience. With that auxiliary, we were invited to have tea with President Tubman up on the top floor of his palace. That was a very unique experience, marvelous. When I was involved with this medical auxiliary, one time we were setting up a display of some kind; I don't remember what it was for. I left to go home and change clothes to come back for whatever the event was. It was very close to the president's palace, and I pulled out onto the road, and all of a sudden the president's security came zooming by, and I had an accident with them. Oh, my goodness. They didn't have sirens or lights or anything. They just came zooming by with some dignitary and his whole, huge entourage. Wherever he went, it was with a huge entourage. But it was like, well, whenever there's an accident with that, it's always the expat's fault. Harrar: Of course. Thompson: But it turned out that that was one advantage of working with the government. They took care of everything. But, oh, it was very unnerving for me to realize what had happened. One highlight was our involvement with an orphanage there. We lived initially in a duplex. A couple lived on the other side of us. He was American, and she was Italian. He worked under USAID as an advisor to the treasury. They became very good friends. And she had some connection somehow. So with her, then, we got involved in helping out in an orphanage. I was asking our oldest son, just this week before we came, if he had any memories of Liberia, because he was 4 when we left. And he said, "I do." And one of the things he mentioned was the orphanage. He said, "I remember going there, and the kids, and playing with them." It was kind of interesting. Harrar: What kind of things did you do there? Thompson: It was a small orphanage. It was a lady and her son, and they had maybe 6, 8 kids. We would take them to the beach, have a picnic. I remember we helped get them a washing machine; they did all their wash by hand. We helped out with clothes, had them over to the house, just those kinds of things. Her name was Eva Deline [phonetic]. I can't remember her son's name. Harrar: I'm sure she remembers you. How do you think this participation in the smallpox project changed your life? Thompson: Oh, as far as our life together, I think it totally changed the direction of our lives. We had been interested in going overseas to work. I think we had thought in terms of probably working with a mission in a hospital. But Dave, after working with this program, was just convinced that there was nothing to do but public health. So we came back and he got an MPH [Master's in Public Health] at Hopkins, and then he did a pediatric residency, and then we went back and worked in public health for 12 years in Chad. One other real highlight of being in Liberia was that every Saturday morning we'd pack a lunch and we'd go to the beach. It was just like having a vacation every week. We'd leave maybe 10 in the morning and come back around dinnertime. That was just marvelous. I said to Dave recently, "I wish we could do that now." We had a couple of incidents that happened at the beach. Our daughter almost drowned. We were there with a number of other people, and there was a lagoon on one side and the ocean. Kids were playing in the lagoon, and we were playing cards. And all of a sudden one of the women looked over and she said, "I [unclear; pls fill in] Christen." And she was just floating. I was sure she was dead. I didn't even get up. I was just shell- shocked. My friend Ruth is an anesthetist, and she ran and grabbed her, and Christen wasn't breathing. And Ruth turned her over and hit her on the back, and water came out and she began to breathe. Harrar: Oh, my goodness, how frightening, how frightening. Thompson: Yes. We kept a close eye on the kids after that. Harrar: And how fortunate that the woman was there who could do that. Thompson: Yes, she just glanced over, ran and got her. Dave ran too, but Ruth got there first. Harrar: And how old was your daughter at the time? Thompson: I don't think she was a year, but she was walking. Harrar: So she doesn't remember. Thompson: No, no, no. Harrar: I'm sure you've reminded her of that incident. Thompson: You know, I don't know that we've talked about it. When I realized only the day before yesterday that I was going to be interviewed, I said, "Dave, I don't remember anything. I don't have anything to say. "He said, "Oh, you remember way more than you think." So I don't know that we've actually talked about it with her. But I need to write some of these things down so we can. Harrar: You mentioned that there were a couple of incidents at the beach. That was one. Do you remember the other? Thompson: Yes. Our son got stung by a Portuguese man-of-war. Often there would be many of them-it must have had to do with the weather. They would wash up on the beach, and we would be really trying to be careful. But one just got all totally wrapped around him. But where we went to the beach was at a mission station and they had a hospital. We just grabbed him and actually ran up there with him. And he remembers that very vividly. Harrar: I can imagine that was incredibly painful for him. What was the toughest problem that you faced, and how did you resolve it while you were there? Thompson: Probably the hardest thing was that Dave was gone all the time, especially in Nigeria. When we first got there, we kind of knew it was going to be like that, but we didn't know anybody. Paula Foege wasn't there yet. Mary Litchfield was there, but she lived on the exact opposite side of town from me. That was our team. And, yes. They would leave on Monday morning, and they'd come back on Friday night. Sometimes they'd leave on Sunday afternoon because there was a huge smallpox epidemic. Fortunately, at that particular time, we were living in an apartment, and so we got to know the couple upstairs, and that helped. And, again, we had a stroller, and I walked and walked and walked and walked. One of the things I should mention is that in our orientation in Atlanta we had been told that we should hire house help, that we were giving somebody a job. But they told all of us not to hire anybody without papers. Well, when we were in Enugu, this guy showed up at the door one day. His name was Patrick, and he wanted a job. He'd been to USAID and they had sent him over, actually, to us. He'd worked in the north, and he'd had to flee. And so I was very naive, and I asked him for his papers, and he said, "I don't have any papers." And I said, "Well, I don't know if I can hire you if you don't have papers." He said, "Well, I worked for Americans in Kano," but he was Ibo, so he'd then had to flee. And he said, "We fled without anything." He said, "Just try me, and I will work. And if you don't like me, you don't pay me." Of course he was just a godsend. He was just incredibly hard-working. He wanted to do everything. After we moved into our house, we would wake up in the morning and we'd hear him moving furniture. All the floors were washed before we got up. And I'd say, "Patrick, you don't need to come so early." He'd say [unclear]. "I felt like saying, "But I'm not." He was just an incredible guy. And in Liberia, too, we just were so fortunate with house help. We got a young guy who actually lived with an American missionary family. They had left, and he was looking for work. And our kids, their biggest treat for them, which was kind of neat, was if Dave and I wanted to go out in the evening. All I had to tell the children was, "You can have rice with Samuel, rice and ketchup," and they were thrilled. It was weird. Harrar: Did you have to do any of the cooking, the shopping? Thompson: I did the cooking and shopping. I loved doing that. I loved going to market. I still love going to market. I go to farmers' market all the time because it reminds me of Africa. And for Patrick, that was very hard. He wanted to cook. And I said, "But what would I do, Patrick, if you cook? You do everything else." But he had done it for other people. When we were evacuated and he got to cook for Dave, he was delighted. Harrar: What kind of impact or what difference do you think it would have made if they had said, "Okay, Dr. Thompson, you and the men or the CDC employees, whatever, are going to go over, but the families have to stay back in the States?" Thompson: Oh, it would have been horrible, horrible. I think it's important both ways. It's important for the men or the employee, whichever spouse that is, to have family there and someone to come home to on weekends. But I also think it's very important for the family because otherwise that's an entire part of their lives that you're not part of. Harrar: Right, right. Thompson: That would be a big hurdle, I think. There are some broken marriages anyway, but I think there would have been more. Harrar: Is there anything that you would have changed if you had to do it all over again? Thompson: I hadn't thought about that. I don't know. I would have to think about that. Of course, in our later experience, we lived in a very small town, and I was very much more involved with African women and really got to know them as friends, just as the African women I got to know in Liberia were the lady who had the orphanage and then the wives of the African physicians who were in the medical auxiliary. And also my neighbor in Liberia. I wouldn't say I got to know her well, but she came over almost every day, and she'd be in my kitchen while I worked. She said, "I want my kids to play here because I want them to be smart." So her kids were at our house a lot, and it was great. I wanted my kids to have that experience of playing with African kids. So it's funny. Shortly before we were leaving Liberia, she threw out her old mortar. I don't know if you've seen them. They're about this high and they pound their grain. Harrar: Oh, yes. Thompson: She threw it out and got a new one, and she wanted me to come and see her new mortar that she'd gotten at the market. And I asked her if I could have her old one. It was mended with metal, where it had cracked. She said, "You don't want that. You can go buy a new one at the market." I said, "No, I want this one because I'll take it home and then I'll think of you every time I look at it in my house." And she just laughed. She thought it was the craziest thing. She said, "I don't understand white people." That's what she said. But I still have it in my house. I have it in my front hallway. And I do think of her all the time. I wonder what happened to her kids, where they grew up. Harrar: So what impact do you think that the experience had on your children? I know they were young, but . . . Thompson: It's hard to separate this from their other African experience, but it had a huge impact on them, and they are incredibly grateful. The son who was born in Liberia is now in the process of adopting. And when he and his wife decided to adopt, he said, "I wonder if we could adopt from Liberia." So they are going in about 3 weeks to get these children. [show's photo] Harrar: Oh, how precious! Thompson: These are sisters. Harrar: Wonderful picture. And the ages are probably . . . Thompson: Four and 1. Harrar: Four and 1. So 2 sisters from Liberia. Thompson: Yes. Harrar: And they're going to be adopted and come to the States when? Thompson: The beginning of August. And I'm sure they would never have gone to Liberia if my son hadn't been born there, but he said, "If we're going to adopt, and possibly overseas, then let's see if there's any possibility of getting somebody from Liberia." Harrar: Well, they're just precious. You're going to enjoy them. Thompson: Oh, yes. We know that, and we're thrilled. So they're actually traveling to Liberia now to get them. Harrar: And what about your daughter? Obviously, your son was affected. Thompson: Yes. I guess it's hard to separate our experience in Chad from our experience with the smallpox program. All the children finished high school in Africa. So they just have a different world view. They have an incredible interest in international things. Living in Africa had a huge impact on them. And they have said many times, "I'm so glad we grew up overseas." And our son, David, still maintains contact with an American friend, another expat kid, who was his friend there Harrar: So, lifetime friendships. Thompson: Yes, definitely. And all of them had very close lifetime friendships from high school. They went to high school in Nigeria even though we lived in Chad; it went to a mission school, but it was incredibly international. One of our daughter's classmates in high school, who turned out to be a very good friend, was from eastern Nigeria. And it turned out that she was born the same week that our daughter Christen was born, in the same hospital that Christen would have been born in had we not been evacuated. Harrar: Wow. Thompson: And they ended up classmates 14 years later. Harrar: How amazing. Thompson: Yes. Isn't that amazing? It is a small world, a very small world. Harrar: Is there anything else that you would like to add? Thompson: Not that I can think of. It was a good experience. We have great expat friends. And those friendships have lasted the years. Harrar: Well, I want to thank you for your time. This has been very helpful for us. # # # </pre> Player html for embedded player to stream video content <iframe src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=https%3A//api.soundcloud.com/tracks/310169673%3Fsecret_token%3Ds-7iUW3&amp;color=ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" width="100%" height="166"></iframe> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Type The nature or genre of the resource sound recording - nonmusical interviews Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-07-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context http://pid.emory.edu/ark:/25593/15909 emory:15909 Subject The topic of the resource WHO Life as expatriate wife Smallpox Eradication CDC USAID Biafra War Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 363155856 bytes audio/x-aiff Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harrar, Linda (Interviewer); NOVA; Writer Thompson, Joan (Interviewee); CDC; Wife of Epidemiologist Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Reunion of West and Central Africa Smallpox workers (2006 : Atlanta, Georgia) Title A name given to the resource THOMPSON, JOAN Description An account of the resource Joan Thompson, wife of epidemiologist David Thompson, who served in Nigeria, Liberia, and Chad. Joan relates how it was to adjust to life in Eastern Nigeria, being 8 months pregnant and evacuating during the Biafra War, and life and friends in Liberia. Joan's husband continued with a career in public health and the family later moved to Chad. Language A language of the resource English